Astur-leonese & the people of Leon--& los lleoneses

[Skratch-D]

Hello everyone,
This is my first post so it would be a good idea to introduce myself.
I am lliones living in Dublin for long time. I've just found this forum by coincidence and been reading a few posts people have submitted.
Guys, you are missing that Asturian, or should we call it Astur-leonese, is not only a language which was spoken or is spoken in Asturias.
In fact, as the name says, Astur-leonese is a language which was spoken in the Kingdom of Leon and later spread into the Austor-lliones Kingdom.
People in llione(leon) still defend the lliones, as people call it in llion, as our native language, even though for political reasons lliones is ignored.
My grandparents spoke lliones as first language and young people are in these days are trying to bring it back.
Well my point to summize this post is, please guys, do not forget that Llion is there and you would like to be mentioned when it comes to Astur-lleonese and not be omitted as I have seen on this forum.....no one mentions anything about leonese as part of Astur-leonese.
Thanks a lot, and PUXA LLION e ASTURIAS.

[Skratch-D]

I'd like you all to read this part of an articule published by Pais Lliones (conceyu.net) regarding the astur-leonese in our land.

"In the schools, the Castilian language is taught to the children independently of their maternal tongue, fomented by the Spanish state. The "Lleones" is only taught to the children in the Asturian community, being forbbiden in Leon by the action of the "Junta de Castilla y Leon" (Castile and Leon government), colonial government that now has subjected our people.
Anyway, and with the pressure our language is under, there still remain hundreds of thousands speakers (300.000 according to the last inquiries) and a lot of Leonese people have deficits in the use of the Castilian language."

Thanks Guys.

[Art]

Thanks, David. That's an excellent point.

Would it make sense for Asturians and Leoneses to work together to preserve their common language?

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Gracias, David. Planteaste una cuestión excelente.

¿Tendría razón actuar juntos los asturianos y los leoneses para mantener su lengua común?

[Terechu]

Aprovecho la ocasión para lanzar la pregunta: ¿deberíamos volver a juntarnos Asturias y León, como en los viejos tiempos de los romanos, en la Edad Media y en la República?
A los leoneses no les hacen ni p--- caso en Castilla y a los asturianos en ninguna parte (ni en Asturias ).
Tengo amigos cántabros que consideran viable una mancomunidad tipo BENELUX. Somos las tres comunidades autónomas más puteadas, ¿por qué no juntarnos?

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I would like to take this opportunity to ask the question; should Asturias and León unite again, like in the old times under the Romans, or in the Middle Ages, or more recently during the First Republic?
The Leonese are totally neglected by Castille and Asturians are totally neglected by everyone (including Asturias ).
I have friends from Catabria who consider a commonwealth of sorts like the BENELUX (Belgium, Netherlands and Luxemburg) would be very feasible. We are the three most kicked around Communities. Why not get together?

[Skratch-D]

In association to my last post I would like to post it in astur-leonese for those who do not understand english. Please forgive me for my ingorance.

Pasu ente pasu, nun procesu d'aculturación nel qu'entá tamos güei, el castellán va faciéndose la llingua de la documentación oficial y de cultura, pasando a ser un elementu diferenciador de clas: la más baxa sigue calteniendo la llingua llïonesa, y la más alta, inda que conoz el Llïonés, entama a falar castellán, que conlleva más prestixu y poder. El falante llïonés va ser, en tolos casos, analfabetu na súa llingua nun intentu d'esprestixala y esterminala.

Nas escuelas deprendese-yos el castellán a los neños, independientemente de la súa fala materna, nun procesu aculturizador qu'angüañu se caltién y se fomenta. L'astur-llïonés ou llïonés sólu se deprende a los escolines n'Asturies, tandu prohibíu en Llión por aciu de la " Junta de Castilla y León", gobiernu colonial qu'angüañu tien sometíu al nuesu pueblu.

De tolas maneras, magar la presión baxo la que ta la nuesa llingua, entá queden dellos cientos de miles de falantes (300.000 según las últimas encuestas) y bastantes llïoneses tienen déficits nel usu de la llingua castellana.

[Skratch-D]

Well the opression in Leon suffered and still suffer in these days by Castilla is amazing, huge! People have been forced not only to speak castilian as their mother toungue aslo to migrate to different communities due to lack of future given from Castilla.
There is not even any representers, native people from leon, in the "Castilla y Leon" govertment so decisions are made just in the interest of Castilla.
Well so why not then to call it Castilla y Castilla
The Astur-lliones kingdowm was a big empire in the Peninsula Iberica and just as mentioned destroyed by the Castilla Govertment joining Lleon with Castilla without asking people in Leon what they wanted.
People have been fligthing for our rights from 1980 but the constant denials from Castilla are really killing us.
Leon feels for Asturias as brothers and sisters. If you would be my hand on th e fire saying 98 percent of people would rather like asturias to be with leon than castilla.
I wish people were able to change things no just politicians playing games and ignoring all the history and what people feel.
We are not Castillan-leonese, we have never been, we will never feel like it no matter what govertment says we are not.
PUXA LLION, PUXA ASTUARIAS.

[Skratch-D]

http://fotospaisleones.blogspirit.com/lli%C3%93n/

http://elespacioneutro.blogspirit.com/a ... manos.html

Let me know what you guys think!!!!

[Art]

Hi, David,

Are those your blogs? Very interesting!

I'd only add that Cantabria, Leon, & Asturias seem to have so much in common that it would make sense think of them as one entity, just as Terechu has suggested.

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Hola, David,

¿Son tus blogs? ¡Muy interesantes!

Sólo añadiría que parece que Cantabria, Llion, y Asturies tienen tanto en cómun que tendría razón pensar de los tres como una entidad, como ha sugerido Terechu.

[Terechu]

Muy guapos, Skratch! Aunque sinceremente yo no hubiera puesto la playa de Torimbia y Ribadesella en la página inicial, es como si León no tuviera sitios espectaculares donde bañarse.
Uno de mis favoritos es el río Yuso antes de acabar en el embalse de Riaño. Tiene tramos preciosos y es coto de pesca sin muerte (el embalse hace difícil que suban bastantes truchas).
Otras maravillas que os identifican: las Médulas, el castillo de Ponferrada, la Cordillera vista desde el altiplano de La VIrgen del Camino, la vidriera de la catedral, el paisaje de La Cabrera...qué se yo, mil cosas. Yo tengo grabado en la retina las carreteras que unen los pueblos mineros del Sil, Toreno, Laciana, Villablino.
¿Se nota que me gusta León?
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Beautiful, Skratch! Although, to tell the truth, I would not have placed the beaches of Torimbia and Ribadesella on the front page. It's as if you didn't have any spectacular places to swim of your own.
One of my favourites is the Yuso river just before it flows into the Riaño dam. It's simply beautiful, and it's a "no-death" fishing area (the dam makes it difficult for the trouts and there aren't many any more)
Other marvels that identify you: the Roman gold mines of Las Médulas, the templarian castle of Ponferrada, the Cantabrian mountain range seen from the high plateau of La Virgen del Camino, the cathedral windows, the landscape of La Cabrera...I don't know, a thousand things. One of the images I have "engraved" in my mind's eye are the roads connecting the mining towns of the Sil valley, Toreno, Laciana, Villablino.
Can you tell I like León?

[Skratch-D]

Hey I did not have anything to do with those website, I just found those articules very interesting for you guys to read them.
They state different points of views from leonese with asturian family, or asturian with leonese family. Well it is true that Xixon is like the beach of Llion and I do not lie to you when I say it is. I personally see so many people from Leon every single time I go.
Terechu I totally aggree with you. I'd have personally placed photos from Cudillero, place in which I spent several summer with family on vacacion, well in fact, it was our favorite summer holidays place.
Llion is very very wonderful, so does austiras. We share some the most wonderful views on the Picos de Europa. As you also say many nice places as well are very nice in Ponferrada/villablino....well Llion seems to be an unknown place for people in the peninsula even though it is so nice, a part from asturian who seem to know Llion province pretty well.
I feel so bad when people here in ireland ask me where I come from and I need to ask no too far from Madrid as noone knows the north of Spain.
They all tell me.....spanish yeap I know spain very well....benidor, alicante....pufff....yes they know us very well, yes!!!
The new international airport in Asturias will hopefully make us more known....I personally already fly into Asturias airpot from London rather than goin into Valladolid Airport

[ayalgueru]

A mi Lleon prestame pola vida , tan cerca y tan distinto , el calor , el vino y el color de les coses , una version mediterranea ( nel sentiu que Lleon nun ye atlantico ) d'asturies ,,, la mayoria de los asturianos tien muncha relacion con lleon ,, por familia , por tener casa o collacios o les tres coses a la vez.
Depues de dicir esto en principiu yo nun soy partidariu d'una hipotetica xunida con lleon , si bien el norte de lleon bien podia ser asturies , babia , oseya , l.lacia etc el restu ye otra cosa. la llingua asturiana/lleonesa lleva desaparecida dende hay munchu tiempu na mayor parte del territoriu de Lleon , el sentiu del humor y el genius loci del pais ye simplemente distintu. Dixe en principiu porque soy suceptible de ser convenciu de lo contrario que conste !
Agora que si you d'acuerdu que la xente de Lleon deberia ser consulatada nel so futuru y da-yos la oportunida de establecese solos en sin castiella si si ye el so deseu que ademas parez ser el casu.
Tolo meyor ,, saludos cordiales d'un asturianu tamien emigrau …
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I really love leon and always try to spend a couple days there when am on holidays in the asturies , so close and so different , the heat , the light the wine ! And colour of things ,, a mediterranean version of asturies ( in the sense that leon has no coast but belongs to that world ) . Most asturians have a close relation with leon and the leones either via family , holidays and propertu ownings , friends and in many occasions all 3 above.
Having said I would not ( in principle ) be for a hypothetical political union of both territories , although north leon could well be asturies ( babia , oseya , l.laciana .. ) the rest is a whole different thing altoghether , the asturleonese language has not been present in the leonese flatlands for decades if not centuries , the sense of humour and the genius loci of the country is simply different. Having said that I could persuaded and I am kind of open on the issue ,,
What is sterling clear is that leonese people should be given a say if they so wish they should be able to set up shop without castille.

All the best from a fellow emigree from the asturies ..

[Skratch-D]

Very good points there which I would like to disccuss.
First of all, the polical union of austiras with leon (as leon, zamora and salamanca) is not that crazy....another thing is would it ever happen or better let it happen? I dont think so. And I emphasise the fact that union almost happened on 1980...yes we are just talking about 25 years ago and just due to castille which interfired at the last minute that option was rejected and we were kind of forced to join with castille.
Secondly, asturias and leon are very different....yes true as you would aslo see many many differences between the north, easth, south and west of the provinve of leon but we are still all leoneses....even though culture, sense of humours, etc is totally different.
Secondly, astur-leonese was a language born in Leon (called leonese) as leon was the capital of the kindom. As the kindom expanded to asturias was rename as Astur-leonese as both kindom unified in one.
Asturias was part of leon, as leon was part of asturias for centuries......ignore all that is kick centuries all history...please.
Also for your information leonese has been always alive in leon province, even though castille has made the number of speakers reduce.
My grandparents were leonese speakers....and we are not talking about years ago, no even centuries ago, we are talking about nowadays.
I live in leon city by the way, and my parents were born just 30 mins from leon, in La Vecilla (if you know where that is).
Young people are bringing the language back....as it was banned for so many many years...now we are almost starting from zero but people, young and old, care about leonese and I am pretty sure that if leon was a province as we try to, leonese would be spread to new generation but...under the opression of castille there is nothing we can do as they keeping denying our rigths.
Nowadays, there are 3 big leonese language school which teach leonese in Leon, Bierxo and Astorga, the main 3 ones....of course they are more, but it is true we are still going through an huge struggle.
However, better days to come yet.
A lliones from Dublin.

PS, sorry for no spanish translation....I will try to write it later on whenever i get time.

[Terechu]

You have very good points there, but I was actually suggesting a commonwealth type of arrangement, not a fusion. In other words,each community would continue being autonomous (León would have to break away from Castille), with its own government and institutions, but we would vote together, defend each other's interests and negotiate together before the Central Government, much like the BENELUX at the European Union.
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Tenéis muy buenos argumentos, pero yo estaba sugiriendo una especie de mancomunidad, no una fusión. En otras palabras, cada comunidad seguiría siendo autónoma (León tiene que soltarse de Castilla) , teniendo su propio gobierno e instituciones, pero votaríamos juntos, defenderíamos los intereses mutuas y negociaríamos juntos ante el Gobierno Central, como hacen los paises BENELUX con la Unión Europea.

[Skratch-D]

Yeap I knew about ZASALE. I even know there is a colective which already defends asturias, leon (as Leon, Zamora & Salamanca) and Cantabria.
In fact, they've already done a real proposal to the govertment regarding this point. I doubt they will go far though.
There are more than an association in Leon province speaking astur-lliones, check these links please:
http://www.elfueyu.net/
http://www.lanzadera.com/raicescharras
http://www.eltoralin.com/
and more than i do not even have time and space to mention.
As you can see reading these links they are quite few who defend astur-lliones all over the place and i am proud of it.
Of course Castille is a big barrier for all this to go further and things need to change in poilical ways to see a near prospect future.