Asturian-American Migration Forum

Hello everyone My name is Joseph Huertas RiverWind. My ancestry is from the Old world and the New-Galician/Asturian/Taino. The only one we have information on is my mothers father, my grandfather, Ramon Huertas who immigrated here and married my grandmother Eustaquia, who was a native woman of the Taino people. He came here to Florida and the Carribean to expand his sugar cane plantation business and was very succesful at it. He was 6' 5'', 300lbs and carried what sounds like a shillelegh(War Club) everywhere he went. I DO HAVE pictures of him and I will post them as soon as I get a chance. My father tells me that he looked like Matt Dillon-lol and not only did he sing songs of being back home in his "mother country" but he played the gaita as well.
This floored me since growing up with native american traditions and customs I found myself loving the sound of the pipes and everything celtic. Even so far that Im learning to play the pipes now and after hearing the Gaita's, it all makes sense now and I totally love the music!!
As you can imagine, this called for a serious identity crisis all these years:) It wasnt until a few months ago that my father began telling me about him. You see, amongst native people the Spaniards were the conquistadors, so of course you dont want to say you are related to them. Little did I know about the deep celtic roots and history of the Asturian and Galician people. My father knew little about the history of the people and country so he is learning as much as I that its not all about the Spaniards-lol
Im very happy to have found this site and I look forward to learning more about my roots on the others side of the world. Mvto(Thank you) to the site creators for building this site and for the opportunities and learning yet to come:)
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Traducción Terechu

Hola a todos Me llamo Joseph Huertas RiverWind (Viento del río). Mi linaje es del Mundo Viejo y el New-Galician/Asturian/Taino. Del único que tenemos información es del padre de mi madre, mi abuelo Ramón Huertas, quien vino inmigrado y se casó con mi abuela Agrippina, nativa del pueblo Taino. Vino a Florida y el Caribe para ampliar su negocio de plantación de caña de azúcar y tuvo mucho éxito. Medía 6'5" (1,95 m), pesaba 300 libras (110 kg) y siempre llevaba lo que parecía una shillelegh (bastón de guerra) a todas partes. Tengo fotos suyas y las enviaré en cuanto pueda. Mi padre me dice que se parécía a Matt Dillon y no sólo cantaba canciones de su tierra natal, sino que también tocaba la gaita.
Esto me alucinó, porque al haberme criado con las tradiciones y costumbres de los americanos nativos me encontré con que me gustaba el sonido de la gaita y todo lo celta. Hasta el punto de que estoy aprendiendo a tocar la gaita y despues de haber escuchado las gaitas todo tiene sentido y me encanta la música totalmente!
Como os podéis imaginar, esto conllevó una crisis de identidad total durante años Hace sólo unos meses que mi padre empezó a hablarme de él. Entre los nativos los españoles eran los conquistadores, de manera que no quieres decir que estés emparentado con ellos. No tenía ni idea de las profundas raíces celtas de Asturias y Galicia. Mi padre sabía poco de la historia y las gentes y que no todo tiene que ver con ser españoles
Estoy feliz de haber encontrado este sitio y de aprender más sobre mis raíces del otro lado del mundo. Mvto (gracias) a los creadores de este sitio por las oportunidades y el conocimiento por venir

Hi Joseph and welcome,
Loved your introduction and your background - WOW! I'll be translating it for the forum members here in Asturias who don't speak English. They'll love it.
By the way, today's Spaniards have nothing to do with the "Conquista de América" - we descend from people who stayed right here and never set a foot in America - that's why we're Spaniards and not Peruvians or Mexicans for instance.
So you can relax about your heritage and face up to it with pride.
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Hola Joseph y bienvenido,
Me encantó tu presentación y tu entorno - Buenooo! Lo traduciré para los miembros del foro aquí en Asturias que no hablen inglés. Les encantará.
Por cierto, los españoles de hoy no tenemos nada que ver con la Conquista de América - descendemos de gente que se quedó aquí y nunca puso un pié en América - por eso somos españoles y no peruanos o mexicanos, por ejemplo.
O sea que puedes relajarte en cuanto a tus orígines y dar la cara con orgullo.

Terechu

Hola Joseph.

No es imposible que tus antepasados fueran originarios de Galicia, pero en principio el apellido Huertas no es lingüísticamente gallego. Las palabras latinas que tenían una O o una E, breves, y tónicas (con acento), fueron tratadas de diferente manera en gallego-portugués y en asturiano-leonés. El gallego simplemente las hizo un poco más largas, pero en definitiva quedaron sonando como O y E. En cambio, el asturiano también las hizo más largas, para al final producir un diptongo, normalmente WE y IE. Aquí puedes ver algunos ejemplos:

Latín: PORTAM, CASTELLUM
Gallego: PORTA, CASTELO
Asturiano: PUERTA, CASTIELLU
Inglés: DOOR, CASTLE

Huertas proviene del latín HORTUM, huerto, convertido en femenino y expresado en plural, de modo que, siguiendo la regla, en gallego tendría que decirse HORTAS, no HUERTAS.

Por otra parte, si eres medio semínola, eso quiere decir que tus familiares pueden provenir de Florida, y precisamente esta tierra fue descubierta por asturianos: Pedro Menéndez de Avilés y sus marinos. Precisamente la ciudad más antigua de Estados Unidos se llama San Agustín, que es el santo venerado en Avilés.

De todas formas, aquellos conquistadores asturianos se dedicaron más a matar hugonotes franceses que indios, por si te sirve de consuelo, y tampoco creo que tu padre fuera responsable, ¿no te parece? Además, la llegada de asturianos o gallegos a América es más bien moderna, no fueron precisamente ellos los que en mayor número participaron en la conquista (el español de América Latina está directamente relacionado con los dialectos del sur, extremeño o andaluz, por ejemplo).

Por si te resulta de interés, te diré que el nombre de Astures (las antiguas tribus de hace 2000 años de las que descendemos los asturianos y los leoneses) quiere decir "los que habitan junto al río Astura", hoy el río Esla que corre por León. Y Astura quiere decir justamente "el río" en la lengua anterior a la llegada de los romanos. También tenemos en Asturias otro río más pequeño llamado Astuera, hay otro en los Alpes italianos llamado Stura, varios Stour en las Islas Británicas, el nombre antiguo del Danubio era Ister, todos ellos en tierras donde habitaron los celtas. Es más, en la lengua hablada en la Bretaña francesa (Brittany), que es una lengua celta aún hablada hoy en día, "río" se dice stêr.

Todas estas palabras provienen de una antigua raíz indoeuropea *SRU ("lo que fluye, agua que corre, agua, río"), de donde también salen las palabras inglesas steer o stream. Así que lo de "River" lo posees por partida doble

Thank you for responding so quickly! I am also a historian and this information is fascinating as well as touching in my soul because its a part of who I am. To clarify the "Spanish" discontent amongst the native and non-native people here the stereotype of the conquistadors is what prevales when its comes to native americans with spanish last names. The lack of education in the school system is what give people these wrong generalizations about the Spaniards. I grew up in Florida and never once knew any of the history that Carlos posted, thank you Carlos!

Rivera was the family name on the other side of the family and if I remember correctly isnt there a street in Galicia called La Calle De Las Huertas or something like that? Until a few months ago I never knew Galicia or Asturia even existed so this is all new to me, thank you for your patience:)

Your also right in saying that the Florida Spaniards lived in peace with the indigenous people, not seeking to destroy or conquer but to live in peace and convert the people to Christianity, for the most part. Thank you again for severing the tie of lumping all Spaniards together as conquistadors, obviously not if my Grandfather fell in love with a native woman and married her-lol. I also had no idea that St. Augustine was founded by Asturians!

Although America claims this to be the oldest city, America chooses to disregard the native history here and in fact there is a Pueblo on the reservation in Arizona that is STILL a thriving, native trade city and has been occupied for over 2,000yrs!

We do feel the same way as far as the past being the past and no one alive today is responsible for the things that happened long ago but there is still alot of healing that needs to take place amongst native people. As far as Im concerned Im very proud of my roots and Im glad I can at least read Spanish or what Carlos wrote would have been lost on me. If I tried to speak Spanish though, I often think that I sound like a drunk gerbil trying to communicate in Yiddish but I get by pretty good, really its not THAT bad-lol

On a side note I cant wait to learn to play the Gaita's. To me its a way of connecting with the Grandfather that I never had the honor to meet, hear his stories and his gaita. Its also a way for me to express my love for my ancestors blood that courses through my body through the music of my people from here and from across the world. I grew up singing, playing the native flute, singing on the drum and now im opened to this beautiful new world of music that I never knew existed.

I look forward to reading, learning more, and one day flying to "My Mother Country" as my father quoted my Grandfather saying one day:)

Hola otra vez, Joseph.

Lo siento, pero las probabilidades de que tu apellido venga del nombre de una calle en Galicia son ínfimas. Primero, has de saber que en todo el país que los extranjeros conoceis por España no se habla una sola lengua, el español o castellano. En la Edad Media había una lengua que los filólogos llaman gallego-portugués. A medida que los reinos cristianos del norte avanzaban hacia el sur, tomando tierras nuevas y expulsando a los musulmanes, los gallegos llevaron consigo su lengua, extendiéndola por una franja vertical en dirección norte-sur, paralela a la costa atlántica occidental de la Península Ibérica. Posteriormente, todo ese territorio se vio políticamente dividido en dos: la cuarta parte norteña es la Galicia actual, perteneciente a España, y los tres cuartos restantes, son otro país diferente, que es Portugal. La separación política hizo que la primitiva lengua medieval fuera evolucionando de forma distinta en Galicia y Portugal, y ésa es fundamentalmente la diferencia actual entre el gallego y el portugués modernos, que los filólogos consideran dos ramas o grupos de dialectos del mismo idioma.

El caso es que la unificación política que llevó a crear lo que hoy se llama España fue llevada a cabo por uno de los varios reinos medievales, que fue Castilla. Y con la supremacía política, vino también la cultural. El castellano lleva siglos presionando a las demás lenguas y modificándolas en mayor o menor medida. Y uno de los síntomas de la sustitución de los idiomas es la "castellanización" de los nombres de lugar. Esa calle, antes de ser llamada "Calle de las Huertas", seguro que se llamó en gallego "Rúa das Hortas", posiblemente porque el crecimiento urbano de la población a la que pertenece esa calle acabó cubriendo una antigua zona rural que tenía huertos. Además, los apellidos y nombres españoles, sean gallegos, castellanos o de cualquier otro lugar, no son nada modernos, algunos son incluso de origen pre-romano. Es decir, que tu abuelo no pudo ser llamado Huertas como apellido por haber nacido o vivido en esa calle, el apellido se formó en una época mucho anterior, quizás tres o más siglos como mínimo. Y por otro lado, dejando aparte que el nombre de la calle de Galicia esté en su forma original o "traducido", te aseguro que hay infinidad de calles, plazas y poblaciones llamadas Las Huertas por toda la Península. Por lo tanto, no hay ningún motivo en especial para atribuir un origen gallego a ese apellido. Podría ser lingüísticamente asturiano, leonés, castellano, extremeño, andaluz, aragonés...

Sobre lo que dices de que la Historia anterior a la llegada de los europeos es como si no existiera, bueno, es un poco igual en todas partes. En América Latina la Historia que se cuenta en muchas escuelas es la Prehistoria española, los celtas y los iberos, los fenicios, griegos, cartagineses y los romanos, luego los bárbaros, después los árabes, la "Reconquista", la toma de Granada, los Reyes Católicos, Cristóbal Colón, los "Conquistadores", y las respectivas guerras de independencia de México, Argentina, Perú, Colombia, etc... Como mucho, sólo alguna mención de pasada a apaches, mayas, aztecas, patagones... En realidad, salvo los especialistas universitarios, la mayoría de la población lo ignora casi todo sobre aquellos nativos, salvo en el caso de que... ellos mismos lo sean.

Lo mismo pasa en Australia con los nativos australianos y los colonos británicos, o en las colonias francesas (en las escuelas de Argelia las clases de Historia comenzaban así: Nos ancêtres les Gaulois..., nuestros antepasados los galos )

Y en España alguna gente sigue teniendo un concepto monolítico de lo que es y lo que debería ser el país: sol, corridas, flamenco y todos hablando castellano, cuando deberíamos estar orgullosos de tanta variedad y riqueza e intentar preservarla, mientras que hay gente que hace todo lo contrario: procurar uniformizar. ¿Te imaginas pintar un cuadro de un paisaje de primavera sólo con un único color?

Por último, permíteme que te felicite por tu buen humor, deben ser tus genes asturianos, al menos ésa es la fama que tenemos

Un placer conocer y hablar con un tipo tan original y genuino como tú.

Saludos

Hola otra vez:)

Thank you again for all the excellent history. Ive never seen anyone able to take thousands of years of history and then put it all together within a post in an understandable manner, I enjoyed reading it.

The spelling of Hortas sounds familiar to me so I will ask my father about that when I get a chance. Also, I wasnt implying that my grandfather was named after a street-lol,.only that Id heard that name was in Galicia. In this country it was the same disregard for names in the native language that caused many people now to have last names that never applied to them.

An example is that when we were removed from our sacred lands it was by force and not by choice. This country speaks against the use of bioligical warfare and condems it when in reality, the first time this country used bioligcal warfare was when the government intentionally sent out small pox infested blankets to as many tribes as they could. We lost over 18million of our people because we were not immune to that disease.

Once we were incapacitated by disease, warfare, and starvation. The government found the worse, uninhabitable lands they could and made those our reservations. The large majority of the Southeastern tribes were forced marched to the west in 1832, We call it The Trail of Tears or The Trail Where We Cried. This included the Cherokee, Chicasaw, Choctaw, Creek, and Seminoles and each tribe lost over 1/4 of its people on this death march. The ones who stayed behind to resist and fight are the tribes that still have reservations on the east coast of America.

As soldiers took down names for the roster, many people did not speak English so soldiers would give them last names like barrel, fish, dog or whatever demeaning name they could find. There were people who did know how to speak English however and they were able to translate THEYRE own name into english which became surnames. Names like, ThunderShield, MedicineBear, Chases His Horse, LookingCloud, WhiteManKiller, CutsTheRope, LittleBird, StrongBow, and so on(These are real last names of freinds of mine)

In our culture we have several names, we have our regular names that we carry on our drivers permit. This is how we are known to the outside world but in our traditional way we are known by who our mother is and not our father. Our clans are passed down through the mothers blood. Then we have our "indian" names, not every native person has an Indian name because you have to earn this and it is given through ceremony and not chosen because of a color or animal that one likes. but through prayer and fasting by a holy person for your name.

We dont mind being called Indian even though we wear feathers and not dots(on the forehead Indians). It could have been worse!! Columbus could have been looking for the Virgin Islands or Turkey so I'm not complaining:D

Yes, Joseph, St. Augustine was founded by Pedro Menéndez de Avilés, Captain General of the Ocean Sea, who was from Avilés, as his name indicates. He was one of the great seafarers! If he had led the Armada instead of the Duke of Medinaceli, the Brits would be speaking Spanish now!

As to the "black legend" about Spanish Conquistadors,it was started by the English, by Queen Elizabeth I to be precise, who had no scruples of any kind and even got to the point of knighting Francis Drake, who had never been more than a thieving pirate.

There were bloodthirsty Conquistadors, of course, like Lope de Aguirre who was crazy, but then there were explorers like Francisco Vázquez de Coronado, etc. who never harmed anyone and who nobody is interested in.
If you like history, read the biography of Hernán Cortés. He "conquered" Mexico with 200 soldiers, 12 horses and 1 cannon. Now you know nobody can conquer a country of 10 million people with 12 horses and a cannon.
The fact is that he was aided by almost all other Mexicas who hated the Aztecs and their human sacrifices. So, in all fairness, the natives did most of the killings. At any rate, Mexico is a country of 80 million today, and about 80% of its population descend from the Mexica nations (Toltecs, Zapotecs, Mayas, etc.) If the Conquistadors had exterminated them, Mexico's population would be European-looking now.

Joseph, this is not my personal opinion, this is a historical fact. Whereas European settlers in North America drove the natives from their land and killed them without mercy almost to the point of extermination, Spanish Conquistadors and their soldiers married native girls and never cared that much about having 8000 acre farms.
You will agree with me that all countries who were once Spanish or Portuguese colonies never had the problems of racism and discrimination that the British and French colonies have. A very graphic example is the Caribbean: the Spanish colonies of Cuba, Puerto Rico, and Dominican Republic are totally inter-racial. Haiti (French Colony), The Bahamas (British), etc. are not.

Cheers
Terechu

Bueno, Terechu, otra vez tengo que discrepar contigo, ¡qué le voy a hacer!

Es cierto que otros países europeos (en aquella época que citas enemigos políticos de España) se encargaron de difundir todo un sistema de propaganda negativa, por intereses propios, está claro, y al mismo tiempo silenciando las barbaridades propias de dichos países. Pero de ahí a decir que es una especie de complot sin fundamento hay un trecho, y muy grande. Aparte de las manipulaciones interesadas de otros países europeos como Inglaterra o Francia, objetivamente España no era más que un país agresor y expansionista, precedente de los modernos imperialismos, adelantado en varios siglos, y es otro hecho objetivo que, no siendo precisamente unas Hermanas de la Caridad, los españoles cometieron toda clase de violencias contra los indios de toda la América adonde llegaron, en algunas épocas con menos brutalidad, y en otras con más.

Viene aquí muy al caso citar los alegatos de aquella misma época del Padre Fray Bartolomé de las Casas, que era español, y no inglés, francés, ni de otro país. Por ejemplo, esta frase es suya:

Acabéla en Valencia, a ocho de diciembre de mil e quinientos y cuarenta y dos años, cuando tienen la fuerza y están en su colmo actualmente todas las violencias, opresiones, tiranías, matanzas, robos y destruiciones, estragos, despoblaciones, angustias y calamidades susodichas, en todas las partes donde hay cristianos de las Indias. [...]

Puedes leer un resumen de su BREVE ALEGATO DE LA DESTRUICIÓN DE LAS INDIAS, escrito en el español de la época, en esta página de la Universidad de Mainz, en Alemania:

http://www.uni-mainz.de/~lustig/texte/a ... #Texto%201

Y el texto completo en esta página de la Universidad de Georgia:

http://ensayo.rom.uga.edu/antologia/XVI/lascasas/

Por cierto, este fraile español al que muchos movimientos indigenistas de América casi ponen como un santo, escribía en contra de la esclavización de los indios porque los consideraba seres humanos y almas de Dios equiparables a los españoles, pero como era consciente de que se necesitaba mano de obra, no tenía el menor inconveniente en proponer el traslado de esclavos negros desde África, ya que a éstos sí los consideraba inferiores.

No conozco ningún Imperio construido sin sangre ni por motivos altruistas, y el Imperio Español no es una excepción. ¿Recuerdas el film "La Misión", con Jeremy Irons y Robert de Niro? Pues eso también es Historia.

Saludos desde la discrepancia y no te mosquees

Welcome, Joseph; Greetings Terechu & Carlos,

It was probably impossible to grow up in the US in recent centuries and not be racist. But we (US Americans) are often unable to recognize our own racism. I can remember Spanish and French teens telling me that America had a racism problem, but their countries didn't. Right. Got any attitudes about Gypsies? Arabs?

It's hard to see it in ourselves and it's really hard to admit to it in ourselves. And it's not a simple thing. Relations between different cultures can be maddening and racism may be an easy way out.

Anyway, as I recall (not that I was there), the killing of Native Americans and selling of Native Americans slaves began with Columbus in the name of the Spanish crown (the slaves were sold in Spain, I think). Columbus (and disease) killed most of the Arawak on Hispaniola. Rape, murder, slavery, torture, forced labor....that's not my idea of a guest to be welcomed. There's a lot written about this, including: http://www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm

No racism in South America? When I was in Brazil, the Brazilians talked openly (and with concern) about racism. They believe it exists there. (Do you think it might be a human trait or propensity?) I think that there might be something a little different in the racism of South America, although I'm not familiar enough with it to be able to express it. Still, when you look at the ruling class of any country in the Americas, don't most of the leaders look European? Couldn't that say something about the status of non-Europeans?

Well, this is one of the most dismal aspects of the European conquest and expansion into the Americas, and it's not been remedied yet. I do see great hope, though, because our current generation is clearly much more color-blind than ever before. Intermarriage on a huge scale is also making the old categories "white," "red," "black," "yellow," etc. seem ridiculous and meaningless. Joseph's fascinating story is a brilliant example. The good news is that culture isn't about blood, genes or race.

[Let me know if we should move this discussion over to the political area.]

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Bienvenida a Joseph; Saludos a Terechu & Carlos,

Era probablemente imposible crecer en EU en siglos recientes y no ser racista. Pero somos (americanos estadounidenses) a menudo incapaces de reconocer nuestro propio racismo. Puedo recordar algunos adolescentes españolrs y franceses que me dijeron que América tenía un problema de racismo, pero sus países no. Exacto. (No lo creo.) ¿No hay alguna actitud sobre Gitanos? ¿Árabes?

Es difícil de verlo en nosotros y es realmente difícil de admitirle en nosotros. Y esto no es una cosa sencillo. Las relaciones entre culturas distinctas pueden enfurecer y el racismo puede ser una salida fácil.

De todos modos, como recuerdo (no que yo estaba allí), la matanza de indios americanos y la venta de esclavos de indios americanos comenzó con Columbus en nombre de la corona española (los esclavos fueron vendidos en España, pienso). Columbus (y la enfermedad) mató a la mayor parte del arahuaco en Hispaniola. La violación, el asesinato, la esclavitud, la tortura, el trabajo forzado .... esto no es mi idea de un invitado a quien voy a dar la bienvenida. Hay muchísimo escrito sobre esto, incluyendo: http: // www.religioustolerance.org/genocide5.htm

¿Ningún racismo en Sudamérica? Cuando yo estaba en Brasil, los brasileños hablaron abiertamente (y con la preocupación) sobre el racismo. Ellos lo creen existe allí. ¿(Piensas que puede ser un rasgo humano o una propensión?) Pienso que podría haber un racismo un poco diferente en Sudamérica, aunque yo no sea bastante familiar con ello para ser capaz de expresarlo. De todos modos cuándo miras la clase dirigente de cualquier país en las Américas, la mayor parte de los líderes parecen europeos, ¿no? ¿Podía esto no decirnos algo sobre el estado de los que no son de henrencia europea?

Bueno, esto es uno de los aspectos más tristes de la conquista europea y su extensión en las Américas, y no ha sido remediado aún. Yo realmente veo una gran esperanza, aunque, porque nuestra generación corriente (los jovenes) es claramente mucho más daltónica que las anteriores. El intermatrimonio por una enorme escala también hace las viejas categorías "blancas", "rojas", "negro", "amarillo", etc. parecer ridículo y sin significado. La historia fascinante de Joseph es un ejemplo brillante. Las buenas noticias son que la cultura no es cosa de la sangre, genes o raza.

[Avíseme si debemos movar esta discusión al área política.]

I believe we are hogging Joseph’s presentation and this would be a good opportunity to remove the thread to another section.

Anyway – dear Carlos and Art – I’ll take you up in twos!

Carlos:
Si lees mi texto, verás que no he dicho en ninguna parte que los españoles no cometieran atropellos y masacres, simplemente quería explicarle a Joseph que hubo de todo, ni todos los españoles fueron conquistadores, ni todos los conquistadores fueron lo que se dice de ellos y me remito a cualquiera de las estudios más recientes sobre Hernán Cortés. Te recomiendo el de Hugh Thomas.

No me hace falta buscar textos en la Universidad de Maguncia, porque tengo e libro con la colección de cartas de Fray Bartolomé de las Casas y además ¡lo he leído! y alucinado con los dibujos, aunque hace unos 20 años y además ya no sé dónde tengo el putu libru!
Pero en el Archivo de Simancas también se conservan las cartas de Isabel la Católica dando órdenes claras de no maltratar a los nativos y de convertirlos a la fe cristiana – otro hecho que todo el mundo pasa por alto.

Mencioné a Vázquez de Coronado, un militar de 25 años que partió desde México con 500 hombres y llegó hasta Oklahoma en una expedición y al Cañón del Colorado en otra. No sé si te podrás imaginar lo que es dar de comer y de beber a 500 hombres y otros tantos caballos cruzando los desiertos del norte de México y el desierto de Arizona, donde te deshidratas en media hora. Yo he estado allí y da pánico pensar que se te averíe el coche. Pues bien, como no encontró ni El Dorado ni los territorios que atravesó tenían riqueza alguna, nadie habla de él. Lo mismo que nadie fuera de Asturias conoce al gran genio naval Pedro Menéndez que jamás perdió una batalla y conquistó la Florida sin matar más que a un destacamento de soldados franceses (era militar al fin y al cabo). Y es que la “Leyenda Negra” urdida por los ingleses persiste y sólo se habla de los malos.

Insisto en que mientras en Norteamérica prácticamente exterminaron a la población nativa (a principios de 1900 sólo quedaban un millón de indios de costa a costa, Joseph tendrá más datos), en Centro- y Sudamérica la población autóctona es mayoría absoluta.

Evidentemente no voy a entrar a volarar el imperialismo, y no voy a juzgar desde la perspectiva del 2004 lo que pasó en 1500, porque tendría que escribir un tratado. El imperialismo ya empezó con Esaú y Jacob, que tuvo que vender su primogenitura por un plato de lentejas! ¿Quies más?
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Art,
Since we began talking about Conquistadors, I limited myself to that era (15th to 16th Century) and didn’t enter into more recent developments, such as the massive immigration to Central and South America at the end of the 19th Century, which filled Argentina with Italians, Brazil with Germans, and Mexico and Cuba with even more Spaniard. Those are today’s leading classes, and those who “introduced” overt racism, not the descendants of the Conquistadors.

US history is a little different, as the worst massacres took place in the 19th Century with the massive arrival of settlers to the West.

Imperialism is not something that can be discussed in a four-line post, and neither is racism. I have never said that there’s no racism now, on the contrary, there is, and big time and I could tell you a story or two about it. As to gyspsies, they have stubbornly refused to integrate themselves for the last 500 years, as they are descending from kings – so they say – and according to their culture no gypsy man will work for a “payo” (non-gypsy). So they send their womenfolk begging! That’s dignity for you!

As to slavery, the international trade was begun by the Turks and Arabs in the Middle Ages (and they continue today in central Africa, although in a clandestine way). The slave market of Istanbul was world-famous. In fact, if you know the story of the “Moor of Peter the Great” you’ll know that he was bought at the age of 5 in the Istanbul slave market to give to the Russian Emperor as a gift. It was fashionable to have a little black page in those days. The emperor brought him up in court as a son and the “Moor’s” grandson, Alexander Pushkin, became Russia’s best and most beloved writer.

You are very much mistaken about Spain’s role in the slave trade. Like in Portugal, it was the wealthy Spanish merchants who engaged in slave trade, like the Marqués de Santillana, who owned a fleet, but never the Crown (the State). It was always a private activity carried out on the shores of Africa.
No slaves were sold in catholic Spain ever, slavery was forbidden in Spain and the slave trade was never carried out in the name of any Spanish king. Like I mentioned above, Queen Isabella gave written instructions to abstain from ill-treating the natives and to bring them the “Real Faith”. Her letters are at the National Archive of Simancas. The “Black Legend” has hit her fiercely, though.
An updated, fair account of the Conquest of Mexico was published a few years ago by British professor Hugh Thomas (Conquest: Montezuma, Cortés and the Fall of Old Mexico). Hugh Thomas and his team spent years reading the archives of Simancas, to include the 6.000 odd letters sent by Hernán Cortés to his kings.

I could go on, but I already got carried away and forgot I’ve got things to do!

Terechu

Hello everyone:)

I dont mind the posts going the way they are going and if you want to move them to the poliitical arena thats ok.

We all have our stories that are passed down in our families and there is the HIS-story that is told in the education system. A good example is going to school and learning about the Aztec people. Here they teach that the Aztecs were destroyed as a nation and as a people. Several years ago I was given orders to be stationed at Fort Hood, TX(I was a soldier for nine years). I went to a powwow ( A Native Social gathering where we dance, sing, and come together as a people) As I was getting dressed to dance I heard the announcer say "Aztec dancers, coming up next." I was like what? did he say Aztec? So I went out to the dance circle and I heard theyre drums, and I watched them dance in amazement because the Aztecs were not dead, they were right there dancing and speaking Nahuatl, theyre native language right in front of me.

Its up to us to discern what is true and what is imperial fiction. All cultures have mistreated and abused the indigenous people of native lands they have "conquered". Even Columbus held a 13year old native girl captive, in a cage, to do what he pleased with her on his voyages. When he was done with her, he would hand her over to his crew, this is also fact. Columbus himself wrote about it in his ships logs.

I hear your opinion on the gypsies "stubbornly" refusing to integrate with the rest of society. This is close to home for our people because that is what this countries goal was in the 1970's. I dont think people realize that we still suffer injustice in this country today! In the 70's the government split apart native families and placed them in the cities in so they would be forced to assimilate. All that did was create a generation of native people who found themselves lost and confused trying to find where they fit in, so the children of those people are the ones who are coming back to the reservation to regain what they have lost from our elders.

The Lakota Nation are the poorest in the country and theyre story is similar to the gypsies. 95% unemployment, alcohol abuse, highest rate of teen suicide over the whole nation! Paha Sapa(The Black Hills) is a sacred mountain to them. Its where, in theyre creation story The Creator made them from. The government made a treaty(385 treaties the government has made with native nations and not ONE has ever been upheld by this country) with them saying the mountain was theyres "as long as the rivers flow and the grasses grow." until gold was found there that is.
Now there are the "Founding Fathers" carved into this sacred mountain and here is where the "stubborness" ties in. Held in federal trust is over 18 Million dollars and counting in the name of the Lakota nations. But the people WILL NOT sell theyre sacred mountain. They believe Paha Sapa to be the heart of the earth and when seen from up above, the mountains are shaped like a heart.
In still motion photography from space Paha Sapa contracts and expands like a beating heart! So theyre "stubborness" is economically devastating to these people but they will not sell out who they are. So to me the gypsies are holding onto what they believe and they do NOT have to conform to anyone standards but theyre own, why should they change?

This is small in comparison with other things. For example, there is a lawsuit against the governtment by many tribes because in the 80's there were tribes that had land holding with mineral and oil deposits. You see, in America we are the only race of peope who have to carry a card to identify ourselves and on that card we are given a blood pedigree like a show dog. Now here is how this works, if Im Full Blood*which there are many full bloods still) and I marry another full blood from a different tribe and have kids, they are only considered half. Because you can only be enrolled with one tribe. As the blood lines thin on paper the government takes the land back and kicks everyone out with no compensation.

The lawsuit was for something similar but more extreme. We have government run health services on the reservations. In the 80's young native women went in for dental exams and 20 years later they start realizing..hey, we cant have children. The government was performing forced sterilazation of native women that belonged to tribes that had tribal land rich with mineral and oil deposits without them knowing! THey wer put under for theyre dental work and woke up not knowin what had happened. The statistical number of native people unborn because of this genocide is roughly 250,000.

Another sore point with us is this country was founded by people who wanted to be relieved from religious persecution. Guess what? It was illegal for us to dance, sing, speak our language and perform our ceremonies until the American Indian Religious Freedom Act of 1978! This is after having fought and died in every war this country has been in. Native Americans have always had the highest volunteer ratio to go fight. Its part of our responsibility as warriors to do so. For example Vietnam, 8-9,000 native people fought and roughly 8,000 were volunteers

So the imperialism still exists here and we are fighting with our breifcase warriors now, native attorneys, in theyre court rooms with theyre laws.

Humanity is a tide that comes and goes so Im not pointing fingers or saying one race is better than another. Our medicine wheel is a symbol of this harmony that the Creator made on the earth. Its is four directions encompassed by a circle(the sacred hoop). In this medicine wheel each direction has a color. Red, Yellow, Black, White...the four colors of the races of man. We have always known about the other people because I our stories it talks about theyre creation and each races responibility on this earh in order to keep things in a balance. That balance has been broken so we are trying to restore it through prayer, ceremony and most importantly through people.

What it boils down to is we are all part of the HUMAN race and that is what ultimately matters:)

Hi, NewPiper, I was fascinated by reading about you and your story. And Wow, what level of erudition, Terechu and Carlos, are you both History professors? I confess I was really feeeling a little ashamed about my lack of knowledge about South American history, or about all American history for that matter when reading your replies. Thankfully, I have already realised (only two days into joining), that this site is brilliant for exchanging information about things we are all interested in. And for guiding you into reading about things that you always wanted to know about but never before took the trouble of looking for. Now you really spurred me! So I'm off to the Library to look for that book of Hugh Thomas (who I respect enormously)on Cortes. Thank you for the tip, Terechu

Regards
Tere

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(amateurish) Translation

Hola, new Piper, me ha fascinado leer acerca de ti y de tu historia. Y caray, que nivel de erudiccion, Carlos y Terechu. Sois los dos profesores de Historia? Confieso que me he sentido muy avergonzada por mi laguna de conocimientos sobre la historia de Sudamerica, y de toda America en realidad, cuando leia vuestros mensajes. Por suerte, ya me he dado cuenta ( y solo dos dias desde unirme al foro) de que esta web es genial para intercambiar informacion sobre cosas que nos interesan a todos, y para guiarnos hacia lecturas sobre cosas que siempre hemos querido saber pero que nunca nos hemos molestado en buscar. Ahora si que me habeis animado!, asi que me voy a la bibliotea a buscar ese libro de Hugh Thomas ( a quien respeto muchisimo) sobre Cortes. Gracias por la pista, Terechu.
Saludos de Tere

Hello everyone:)

Im still here and still digging deep into my family history. I was interviewed by Saul Fernandez from La Nueva Espana and the article got published with great reviews:)

He helped me trace my family back to two towns called Salas and Grado. My mother had a fresh water pearl necklace and earrings set that her father had given her whos pearls were from a large river where her father was from. Unfortunately I cannot find that jewlery:(

Anyways, from Salas and Grado is where our family originated and I hope to one day go there to see the ancestral home of my Asturian family and maybe even meet some counsins-lol

My wife and I now have a ministry and it goes right along with what we were discussing before about the history of all nations. Reconciliation and forgiveness between nations is the key to healing our past. This past weekend at a church service we called upon the congregation for anyone who was of Spaniard descent. We had spoken of the massacre the Spaniards commited in the town of Mobile, Al ( A port city). There was one young man (a descendant of the original Spanish inhabitants) and he came up and I apologized to him for all the things our people had done to his and he in turn did the same.

We do not represent all natives and he didnt respresent all Spaniards but in our hearts there was healing between two nations of people. It was a wonderful experience as we embraced in love and freindship. If you would like to see our website its:

www.sacredhoopministries.com

And if anyone over there could find it in theyre hearts to donate a gaita to our ministry we would be soooo happy:) Its something we have been praying for and on a side note, if anyone does could you please send us your name and address so we can send you something in return. Our people never take anything without giving something back and as rare as a gaita is here we would make sure to send you something special from our people here.

Time to go for now, I hope everyone had a great Christmas and a Happy New Year. Talk to you all soon:)

Joseph

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Transl. Terechu

Aún sigo aquí y sigo profundizando en la historia de mi familia. Me entrevistó Saúl Fernández de La Nueva España y el artículo se publicó con muy buena acogida.

Me ayudó a seguir el rastro de mi familia hasta los villas de Salas y Grado. Mi madre tenía un conjunto de collar y pendientes de perlas de agua dulce que su padre le había dado y que eran de un gran río de donde era su padre. Por desgracia no encuentro estas joyas
Pero en fín, Salas y Grado son los lugares de origen de nuestra familia y espero que algún día pueda visitarlas y ver el solar de mis ancestros asturianos e incluso conocer a algunos primos

Mi esposa y yo ahora somos pastores (tenemos un sacerdocio) y va en la línea que ya habíamos comentado anteriormente sobre la historia de todas las naciones. La reconciliación y el perdón entre naciones es la clave para curar las heridas de nuestro pasado. Este fin de semana pasado en el servicio religioso hicimos un llamamiento a la congregación por si hubiera alguien de ascendencia española. Habíamos hablado de la masacre que cometieron los españoles en Mobile, Alabama (una ciudad portuaria). Había un hombre joven (descendiente de los habitantes originales españoles) y se acercó, y yo le pedí disculpas por todo lo que nuestra gente le había hecho a la suya y el, a su vez, hizo lo mismo.

No representamos a todos los nativos americanos y él no representaba a todos los españoles, pero en nuestro corazón sanaron las heridas entre dos naciones de pueblos. Fue una experiencia maravillosa abrazarnos en amor y amistad. Si os gustaría ver nuestra página web, es esta:

www.sacredhoopministries.com

Y si alguno de vosotros pudiera amablemente ver la posibilidad de donar una gaita a nuestra congregación, nos haría taaaaan felices! Es algo por lo que hemos estado rezando y, por cierto, si alguien puede, por favor que nos envíe su nombre y dirección para poder corresponderle y envarle algo también. Nuestra gente nunca coge nada sin dar algo a cambio y aunque una gaita es muy rara [valiosa} por estos pagos, nos aseguraríamos de enviarle algo especial de nuestra gente.

Bueno, ya es la hora, espero que todo el mundo haya tenido unas felices Navidades y un feliz año nuevo. Nos volveremos a hablar pronto.

Hi Joseph,
Nice to hear from you again. It must have been a thrill to be able to put your finger on the very towns where some of your ancestors were from.
You should make it a goal to come over and visit. If you need any help, I'm sure many of us would love showing you around. Besides, we're not that far away and there are many direct flights from major US cities to Madrid and then Madrid to Asturias airport.

You have a nice web site and both you and your wife are a very handsome couple. It was also nice to hear about your experience of forgiveness and reconciliation, you will find that most people are good in their hearts, and those who are mean are not worth our worrying over them.

Take care
Terechu

P.S. I need help translating that play-on-words about the chips and the buffalo. I understand "when the chips are down" means "in the end" or "at the moment of truth", but don't get the connection with the buffalo

Me ha encantado este hilo, tanto que me lo he leido todo. Que pena que lo haya visto hoy por que he pasado las vacaciones de navidad en Dothan, AL un pueblo del sur del estado cerca de Georgia y de Florida y podiamos conocernos. Es muy interesante como la mezcla de culturas afecta a una persona y mas en tu situacion.
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Terechu y Carlos
deberiais hacer un foro de Historia por que creo que lo que tenis guardado en esa cabeza es muy valioso y deberiais compartirlo con los demas.
a si me evito el leer tantos libros

saludos a todos y feliz año nuevo