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Skimming through a book about contemporary Spain (post-Franco) yesterday at a bookstore here in Washington, the author used Asturias as an example of an autonomous region where GDP growth had plummeted after the country’s return to democracy. There were chapters devoted to the Basque Country, Catalonia and Galicia to explain the economic and sociological differences that recast these regions in post-Franco Spain as innovators.
But when it came to talk about a ‘failed’ autonomous region, a few sentences were devoted to Asturias. The reason? I am paraphrasing, but the author suspects it has to do with the inheritance of a rust-belt economy that the political leadership of the region did not know how to turn around. I will look up the author and cite his quotes later. But I thought it interesting that Asturias had earned the dubious title of ‘big loser’ in a narrative of contemporary Spain.
Xuan Candano, the television reporter and columnist of La Nueva Espana (right-of-center newspaper with the widest circulation in Asturias) writes this column in today’s (Feb. 3, 2008) edition. The title ‘Pites! Pites!’ [pronounced PEE-tess] refers to the cooing words that people use when feeding chickens on the farm. Candano is poking fun at the way select groups in the principality have developed a sense of entitlement when it comes to collecting public funds: politicians, entrepreneurs, union leaders.
Vicente A. Areces, the regional president (3rd consecutive term) recently proclaimed what he dubbed a ‘social pact’ with these select groups. The pact’s acronym of ACEBA happens to imply the act of feeding: ‘cebar’ means to feed animals. In a traditionally poor region, Candano says, people have gotten used to a constant supply of food. The tributary stream helps sustain bottom feeders such as local entrepreneurs, who are shielded from global realities by the 'benevolent' paternalist system.
It’s all comically grotesque, were it not tragic for so many young Asturians forced to leave because the region has no economy to speak of. I will translate the column and add comment later, as it is written in Asturian and some of you may not understand.
http://www.lne.es/secciones/noticia.jsp ... ites-pites
¡Pites, pites...!
XUAN CÁNDANO
Fai unos años un rapaz d'un pueblu de les Cuenques acudió per primer vez a una manifestación pola oficialidá, la qu'entama n'Uviéu la Xunta Pola Defensa de la Llingua anantes del actu institucional de l'Academia nel teatru Campoamor. Al acabar la movilización subió colos collacios, más avezaos a estos rituales, a un palcu del teatru. Despistáu abondo y tovía cola escitación nel cuerpu por tanta reivindicación gayolera, tanta bandera y tantu xaréu de la manifestación, el mozu asturianista, de la que vio que s'alzaba mui seliquín un gran telón y apaecíen nel escenariu, sentaos nuna mesa, unos paisanos mui serios y enfataos que más qu'académicos paecíen banqueros aconceyaos, soltó un gran glayíu que sintióse en tol teatru:
-¡Comeores!
Más qu'avergoñaos muertos de risa, los collacios fueron quien a silencialu y sacalu del so error.
Nun sé que será del rapaz, pero si anguañu-y diere por salir a la cai dando'l mesmu glayíu, nun diba haber naide con razones pa tapa-y la boca nin error nengunu qu'iguar.
Asturies ye un inmensu comederu. Del Eo a Tinamayor, de Payares a Xixón, esto ye una fartura a la que tamos toos convidaos. Chiringuitos, subvenciones, pautosÉ ¡Será por perres!
La transición española tien un finxu cimeru: los Pautos de la Moncloa. Hasta ehí llegó'l puxu de la cai, les güelgones, la presión social, la utopía. La paz social tenía un preciu. Los sindicatos firmaron y, como los animales xabaces, fueron domesticaos. Hasta agora. N'Asturies, más, porque esti espectáculu repítese cada cuatro años, anque camuda de nome. El d'esti añu llámase Aceba (Acuerdo para la competitividad, el empleo y el bienestar de Asturias). Los urogallos aliméntense d'acebos y tán en trance d'estinción. A los asturianos danmos de comer l'Aceba, y lo mesmo. Cada día engordamos más, pero tamién tamos n'estinción, pola caída demográfica.
L'Aceba son tres mil seiscientos noventa y un millones d'euros en cuatro años. A la mesa, pa firmar, siéntense'l Principáu, que convida, los empresarios y los sindicatos. Esto ye la gran fartura, la torna al asturianu de «La grande bouffe», aquella película tan gocha de Marco Ferreri. Ciento tres d'esos millones van pa «formación y empleo», que ye d'onde pillen los sindicatos y la FADE pa financiase.
Lluegu tán los postres: una subvención pa esti, un contratín p'aquel, un programucu pal otru. Pa la cultura, con eso basta. Los artistes ye lo que tienen, aliméntense cola vanidá y básta-yos con cuatro duros. Ye la política de ¡pites, pites!É la del paisanu espardiendo piensu pel gallineru.
La paz social ye mui silenciosa. Cola boca enllena nun se fala. Tampoco nun barrena unu la cabeza. Contra la funesta zuna de pensar, la prestosa decisión de xintar. ¡Habrá cosa más guapa que tola familia na mesa, como nes bodes!
¡Asturies, qué gran banquete y qué tierra de contrastes: los llicenciaos, a emigrar; y los demás, a comer! Hai cuatro repunantes que nun se quieren sentar na mesa, los mui mazcayos. Nun se sabe ónde xinten. Pero nin los conocemos. Nun salen na semeya al final, cuando los puros y los volaores.
ACEBA, bottom feeders in Asturias / ACEBA, los 'comeores'
Moderator: Moderators
ACEBA, bottom feeders in Asturias / ACEBA, los 'comeores'
Last edited by is on Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
John Hooper
The book's title is 'The New Spaniards', by John Hooper, and it's published by Penguin. The edition I found was from 2006 and costs $16.
Hooper was the Madrid correspondent for the British newspaper The Guardian beginning in 1976, right at the beginning of Spain's transition from Franco's dictatorship to democracy. He has interesting insights about those years, including the implicit formula of 'forgetting' the 36-year legacy of Catholic fascism, or however you would best characterize Franco's Spain. One thing he says about the transition is that it was more about 'forgetting' than 'forgiving'. Spaniards found the strategy of avoidance a better way to move on.
Here is the paragraph that I was referring to in the previous post, concerning Asturias. After three chapters on Basque, Catalan and Galician demands for home rule, Hooper mentions the lesser autonomous regions, or those that are at the tail end of the whole devolution process. He brings up Asturias as a region that failed to benefit from decentralization in Spain, perhaps because of the ineptness of its political leadership. Although, like anything, reasons for success or failure are multifactoral, in the case of post-Franco Asturias, I think he may be on the right track. Here is the excerpt:
"The economic impact of autonomy is almost impossible to assess. This is mostly because the authorities have so far not published any figures to show which regions emerged as net beneficiaries and contributors. But another version is that so many other factors have a bearing on whether a region becomes richer or poorer. In the table of per capita GDP, Asturias has fallen sharply since being granted its statute. But is that because the autonomous government has not been adept as others at exploiting the powers at its disposal? Or is it perhaps because the Principality has been saddled with a dying 'rust-belt' economy?"
----
El titulu del l.libru ia ‘The New Spaniards’ ya l’autor ia John Hooper. Ta asoleyao por Penguin ya la edicion que toupei ia del anu 2006, $16.
Hooper foi corresponsal en Madrid pal diariu britanicu The Guardian en 1976, pouco despueis de finar la dictadura de Franco ya a l’entamu del camin a la democracia. Tien del.las cousas interesantes que cuntar d’esos anos, pente el.las la estratexa ‘d’escaezu’ de los 36 anos de ‘nacional-catolicismo’, ou cumu se quiera chamar a la Espana franquista. Una cousa que diz de la transicion ia que houbo mas enfotu n’escaecer que en perdonar, per dambos l.laos. Nun falar de cousas foi el camin que ufiertaba menor resistencia, ya asina se feixo.
Eiqui ta’l parrafu al que fadia referencia mas arriba no que cinca Asturias. Despueis de tres capitulos que falan del movimientu de devolucion pa vascos, catalanes ya gal.legos, Hooper utiliza l’exemplu de las comunidaes autonomicas con menos xeitu, aquel.las que tan nel furgon de cola. Fai referencia a Asturias cumo a la rexon que nun foi quien a beneficiase del procesu de descentralizacion d’Espana, seique pol nun saber fader de sous dirixentes politicos. Magar que eiqui, cumo n’outros temas, hai razones multifactorales pa tou lo que se peta, cuido que tien xaciu. Hooper:
“L’impactu economicu de la autonomia ia casique imposible de valorar. Seique ia porque el gobiernu inda nun asoleyou los indicadores qu’amosarian cualas comunidaes xurdieron cumo beneficiarias ya cualas contribuyentes. Outra version sedria que hai muitas razones exerciendo la sua influencia sobre’l destin de cada rexon, tanto si se fain ricas ou probes. Nos indicadores de PIB per capita, la riqueza n’Asturias esbarrumbouse dende que s’adoptara l’estatutu d’autonomia. Pero eso ia porque el gobiernu asturianu nun foi amanau na esplotacion de los poderes qu’asumiu? Ou seique porque el Principau ia l’heriede d’una economia de industria de fierro morribunda?”
Hooper was the Madrid correspondent for the British newspaper The Guardian beginning in 1976, right at the beginning of Spain's transition from Franco's dictatorship to democracy. He has interesting insights about those years, including the implicit formula of 'forgetting' the 36-year legacy of Catholic fascism, or however you would best characterize Franco's Spain. One thing he says about the transition is that it was more about 'forgetting' than 'forgiving'. Spaniards found the strategy of avoidance a better way to move on.
Here is the paragraph that I was referring to in the previous post, concerning Asturias. After three chapters on Basque, Catalan and Galician demands for home rule, Hooper mentions the lesser autonomous regions, or those that are at the tail end of the whole devolution process. He brings up Asturias as a region that failed to benefit from decentralization in Spain, perhaps because of the ineptness of its political leadership. Although, like anything, reasons for success or failure are multifactoral, in the case of post-Franco Asturias, I think he may be on the right track. Here is the excerpt:
"The economic impact of autonomy is almost impossible to assess. This is mostly because the authorities have so far not published any figures to show which regions emerged as net beneficiaries and contributors. But another version is that so many other factors have a bearing on whether a region becomes richer or poorer. In the table of per capita GDP, Asturias has fallen sharply since being granted its statute. But is that because the autonomous government has not been adept as others at exploiting the powers at its disposal? Or is it perhaps because the Principality has been saddled with a dying 'rust-belt' economy?"
----
El titulu del l.libru ia ‘The New Spaniards’ ya l’autor ia John Hooper. Ta asoleyao por Penguin ya la edicion que toupei ia del anu 2006, $16.
Hooper foi corresponsal en Madrid pal diariu britanicu The Guardian en 1976, pouco despueis de finar la dictadura de Franco ya a l’entamu del camin a la democracia. Tien del.las cousas interesantes que cuntar d’esos anos, pente el.las la estratexa ‘d’escaezu’ de los 36 anos de ‘nacional-catolicismo’, ou cumu se quiera chamar a la Espana franquista. Una cousa que diz de la transicion ia que houbo mas enfotu n’escaecer que en perdonar, per dambos l.laos. Nun falar de cousas foi el camin que ufiertaba menor resistencia, ya asina se feixo.
Eiqui ta’l parrafu al que fadia referencia mas arriba no que cinca Asturias. Despueis de tres capitulos que falan del movimientu de devolucion pa vascos, catalanes ya gal.legos, Hooper utiliza l’exemplu de las comunidaes autonomicas con menos xeitu, aquel.las que tan nel furgon de cola. Fai referencia a Asturias cumo a la rexon que nun foi quien a beneficiase del procesu de descentralizacion d’Espana, seique pol nun saber fader de sous dirixentes politicos. Magar que eiqui, cumo n’outros temas, hai razones multifactorales pa tou lo que se peta, cuido que tien xaciu. Hooper:
“L’impactu economicu de la autonomia ia casique imposible de valorar. Seique ia porque el gobiernu inda nun asoleyou los indicadores qu’amosarian cualas comunidaes xurdieron cumo beneficiarias ya cualas contribuyentes. Outra version sedria que hai muitas razones exerciendo la sua influencia sobre’l destin de cada rexon, tanto si se fain ricas ou probes. Nos indicadores de PIB per capita, la riqueza n’Asturias esbarrumbouse dende que s’adoptara l’estatutu d’autonomia. Pero eso ia porque el gobiernu asturianu nun foi amanau na esplotacion de los poderes qu’asumiu? Ou seique porque el Principau ia l’heriede d’una economia de industria de fierro morribunda?”
Last edited by is on Sun Feb 10, 2008 10:53 am, edited 2 times in total.
That's interesting. Thanks, Is.
I'd like to believe that good leaders can have a positive effect on the economy. My gut tells me that bad leaders have a negative impact. But the truth is that I'm not sure either have a lot of effect. Maybe our leaders have an effect to the degree that they create and promote a common vision and get us to act move toward it?
-------------------------------
Eso es interesante. Gracias, Is.
Quisiera creer que los buenos líderes puedan tener un efecto positivo sobre la economía. Mi reacción instintiva es que los malos líderes tienen un impacto negativo. Pero la verdad es que no estoy seguro que ninguno tenga mucho efecto. ¿Tal vez nuestros líderes tienen un efecto al grado que crean y promueven una visión común y nos motivan realizarla?
I'd like to believe that good leaders can have a positive effect on the economy. My gut tells me that bad leaders have a negative impact. But the truth is that I'm not sure either have a lot of effect. Maybe our leaders have an effect to the degree that they create and promote a common vision and get us to act move toward it?
-------------------------------
Eso es interesante. Gracias, Is.
Quisiera creer que los buenos líderes puedan tener un efecto positivo sobre la economía. Mi reacción instintiva es que los malos líderes tienen un impacto negativo. Pero la verdad es que no estoy seguro que ninguno tenga mucho efecto. ¿Tal vez nuestros líderes tienen un efecto al grado que crean y promueven una visión común y nos motivan realizarla?
From Xixon to London
This is a post by the blogger of ‘From Xixon to London’: www.dexixonalondon.blogspot.com. The title of his post is ‘Asturies needs to change…’ and it’s written in English. He otherwise uses Asturian to write about all sorts of topics, from eating out in Hong Kong to Thai food. I’m copying his text here because the latest post addresses some of the issues in this thread about ACEBA, the bottom feeders in Asturias.
“Vais disculpame ,, entame a escribir una respuesta a una respusta del post d'abaxo y cuando quisi dame cuenta llevaba medio fueta n'ingles ,,,
there is no easy fix to our problems ,,,
There are indeed a lot of entrenched interests ...
For about a million people ( data from an article in La nueva espana ) ,,, we have a regional government , 12 mini-ministries ( conseyeries ) and astonishing 500 high senior civil servants in them ! we have about 9 MPs a few more in the senate and we have so called embassy of the asturian government in Madrid ,,,
We have 45 asturian MPs , a delegation of Spanish government in the asturias ( with another handful of highly paid officers in them ) ,,, then we have another 78 councils ,,, with several hundreds of "full time" city councillors and people on their service and payroll and this is just people living directly off the business of politics ,,, then we have all sorts of IDEPA-like organizations , consejos de la juventud , instituto de la mujer etc etc ,,,
Then we have the special interest groups such as Unions , including both the employee's union and the employer's union ( la Dade ) ,,, all on their own way frequently coluding on the noble task of getting money of asturian taxpayers in diverse forms channelling it straight into their membership pocket ,,, prejubilaos ( I doubt this word exist in the english language ,,, )
And those who are not in the "gravy train" already dedicate their time , effort and sometimes intelligence and talent trying to join ,,,,
I could go on ,,,
What's left then ? a significant number of us have already leaft , others are children destined to emigration and a few more are older people who have retired ..true a few meritorius people fight the trend but too few of them.
There is however another asturies that believes in the future and is fighting for it ,,, but is it is not in the power , not in the money and sadly way off the asturian mainstream ...sorting ourselves out is not impossible ... within a generation Ireland has gone from being a remote european backwater to one of the richest country per capita in the european union , only 40 years ago people in Taiwan and Korea have little to eat and now they are asian economic power houses , and closer to home Almeria is now one of the richest provinces in spain .. well evidence is everywhere ... it can be done ,,,
The problem is not that Asturians are lazy of just f*****g stupid , many Asturians have been succesful when they emigrated in the americas and we even had a golden era when we werea leading industrialisation in Spain. We have achieved a lot both individually and as a group and , no doubt , we can do that again.
We need to change the way we think , people need to be more ambitious , strive for excellence , we need particulalrly young people to dream of creating something new and making money ... not of becoming a postman ( a noble profession no doubt but that's beyond the point ) or a paper pusher in some irrelevant office ,,, mediocrity shall not be rewarded ,,, we need to reward risk and entrepreneurship and not the opposite , in Asturies we need to understand that we have to do the things for ourselves and not sit and wait for "other" to come and sort us out ,,,
I do not mean to be cheesy but us , asturians , need to love ourselves a little bit more ,,, The hatred our political elites dedicate to the asturian language ( A fala on the westernmost ) does not come out of the blue is just another manifestation of a deeply rooted malaise ,,,
I speak to friends and some are ready for change ,,, but many others ( the majority ) are not ... a critical mass needs of discontent before anything can change and there are far to many people out there just loving it too much the way it is ,,, the message is clear ,, "we can not go on like this forever , I know it and you know it too" it just needs to get across to a lot of people and that is not an easy task ...
Que rollu acabo de soltar ... pa la proxima vuelvo a l'asturianu ,,, prometolo ,,,”
“Vais disculpame ,, entame a escribir una respuesta a una respusta del post d'abaxo y cuando quisi dame cuenta llevaba medio fueta n'ingles ,,,
there is no easy fix to our problems ,,,
There are indeed a lot of entrenched interests ...
For about a million people ( data from an article in La nueva espana ) ,,, we have a regional government , 12 mini-ministries ( conseyeries ) and astonishing 500 high senior civil servants in them ! we have about 9 MPs a few more in the senate and we have so called embassy of the asturian government in Madrid ,,,
We have 45 asturian MPs , a delegation of Spanish government in the asturias ( with another handful of highly paid officers in them ) ,,, then we have another 78 councils ,,, with several hundreds of "full time" city councillors and people on their service and payroll and this is just people living directly off the business of politics ,,, then we have all sorts of IDEPA-like organizations , consejos de la juventud , instituto de la mujer etc etc ,,,
Then we have the special interest groups such as Unions , including both the employee's union and the employer's union ( la Dade ) ,,, all on their own way frequently coluding on the noble task of getting money of asturian taxpayers in diverse forms channelling it straight into their membership pocket ,,, prejubilaos ( I doubt this word exist in the english language ,,, )
And those who are not in the "gravy train" already dedicate their time , effort and sometimes intelligence and talent trying to join ,,,,
I could go on ,,,
What's left then ? a significant number of us have already leaft , others are children destined to emigration and a few more are older people who have retired ..true a few meritorius people fight the trend but too few of them.
There is however another asturies that believes in the future and is fighting for it ,,, but is it is not in the power , not in the money and sadly way off the asturian mainstream ...sorting ourselves out is not impossible ... within a generation Ireland has gone from being a remote european backwater to one of the richest country per capita in the european union , only 40 years ago people in Taiwan and Korea have little to eat and now they are asian economic power houses , and closer to home Almeria is now one of the richest provinces in spain .. well evidence is everywhere ... it can be done ,,,
The problem is not that Asturians are lazy of just f*****g stupid , many Asturians have been succesful when they emigrated in the americas and we even had a golden era when we werea leading industrialisation in Spain. We have achieved a lot both individually and as a group and , no doubt , we can do that again.
We need to change the way we think , people need to be more ambitious , strive for excellence , we need particulalrly young people to dream of creating something new and making money ... not of becoming a postman ( a noble profession no doubt but that's beyond the point ) or a paper pusher in some irrelevant office ,,, mediocrity shall not be rewarded ,,, we need to reward risk and entrepreneurship and not the opposite , in Asturies we need to understand that we have to do the things for ourselves and not sit and wait for "other" to come and sort us out ,,,
I do not mean to be cheesy but us , asturians , need to love ourselves a little bit more ,,, The hatred our political elites dedicate to the asturian language ( A fala on the westernmost ) does not come out of the blue is just another manifestation of a deeply rooted malaise ,,,
I speak to friends and some are ready for change ,,, but many others ( the majority ) are not ... a critical mass needs of discontent before anything can change and there are far to many people out there just loving it too much the way it is ,,, the message is clear ,, "we can not go on like this forever , I know it and you know it too" it just needs to get across to a lot of people and that is not an easy task ...
Que rollu acabo de soltar ... pa la proxima vuelvo a l'asturianu ,,, prometolo ,,,”
His analysis has a lot of merit, don't you think? In no way would I call Asturians "stupid." But he's right that so many people are doing okay by sitting back that there isn't enough hunger for change.
I read an article in Newsweek recently that more or less said that people who are very happy aren't creative. Creative thinking comes out of discontent. Worse, being very happy can be dangerous because those who are very happy tend to not see threats coming at them.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/107569?GT1=10856
It seems obvious that the subsidies are going to taper off soon. So will the soon-to-arrive bad times force a change in thinking?
By the way, earlier in this thread I wondered if bad leaders can do much damage to an economy. It appears they can. Today I heard a news report about a new soft drink which is becoming popular in Muslim cultures. People there hate the US so much that they are happy to be able to drink "Meca Cola" instead of Pepsi or Coca Cola. Whoa. That's a perfect example of how the radioactive fallout from Bush's disastrous foreign policies have led to threats to American financial health. The American decline may have been inevitable, but Bush has hurried things along.
------------------------
Su análisis tiene mucho mérito, ¿no? De ninguna manera llamaría a asturianos "estúpidos." Pero tiene razón que tanta gente están haciendo muy bien sentándose cómodamente que no hay bastante "hambre" para un cambio.
Leí un artículo en Newsweek recientemente que más o menos dijo que la gente que está muy feliz no sea creativo. El pensamiento creativo sale del descontento. Peor todavía, ser muy feliz puede ser peligroso porque los que son muy felices tienden a no ver las amenazas que se les acercan.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/107569?GT1=10856
Parece obvio que los subvenciones van a disminuir pronto. ¿Forzarán los malos tiempos que llegan pronto un cambio en el pensamiento?
A propósito, anteriormente en este hilo me preguntaba si los malos líderes pueden hacer mucho daño a una economía. Aparece que, sí. Oí hoy en las noticias sobre un nuevo refresco que está volviendo ser popular en culturas musulmanes. La gente allí odia a los EE.UU. tanto que escoge beber "Meca Cola" (cola de Meca) en lugar de Pepsi o Coca-Cola. Opa. Es un ejemplo perfecto de la lluvia radiactiva de las políticas exteriores desastrosas de Bush. Así ha amenazada la salud financiera americana. El declive americana puede haber sido inevitable, pero Bush se lo ha apresurado más adelante.
I read an article in Newsweek recently that more or less said that people who are very happy aren't creative. Creative thinking comes out of discontent. Worse, being very happy can be dangerous because those who are very happy tend to not see threats coming at them.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/107569?GT1=10856
It seems obvious that the subsidies are going to taper off soon. So will the soon-to-arrive bad times force a change in thinking?
By the way, earlier in this thread I wondered if bad leaders can do much damage to an economy. It appears they can. Today I heard a news report about a new soft drink which is becoming popular in Muslim cultures. People there hate the US so much that they are happy to be able to drink "Meca Cola" instead of Pepsi or Coca Cola. Whoa. That's a perfect example of how the radioactive fallout from Bush's disastrous foreign policies have led to threats to American financial health. The American decline may have been inevitable, but Bush has hurried things along.
------------------------
Su análisis tiene mucho mérito, ¿no? De ninguna manera llamaría a asturianos "estúpidos." Pero tiene razón que tanta gente están haciendo muy bien sentándose cómodamente que no hay bastante "hambre" para un cambio.
Leí un artículo en Newsweek recientemente que más o menos dijo que la gente que está muy feliz no sea creativo. El pensamiento creativo sale del descontento. Peor todavía, ser muy feliz puede ser peligroso porque los que son muy felices tienden a no ver las amenazas que se les acercan.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/107569?GT1=10856
Parece obvio que los subvenciones van a disminuir pronto. ¿Forzarán los malos tiempos que llegan pronto un cambio en el pensamiento?
A propósito, anteriormente en este hilo me preguntaba si los malos líderes pueden hacer mucho daño a una economía. Aparece que, sí. Oí hoy en las noticias sobre un nuevo refresco que está volviendo ser popular en culturas musulmanes. La gente allí odia a los EE.UU. tanto que escoge beber "Meca Cola" (cola de Meca) en lugar de Pepsi o Coca-Cola. Opa. Es un ejemplo perfecto de la lluvia radiactiva de las políticas exteriores desastrosas de Bush. Así ha amenazada la salud financiera americana. El declive americana puede haber sido inevitable, pero Bush se lo ha apresurado más adelante.
Last edited by Art on Fri Feb 15, 2008 4:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.
It occurred to me that what we've been saying happens in Asturias happens in the US, too. It probably happens everywhere there are human beings.
To illustrate my point, I'll share a couple of quotes from this article:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/109610
------------------------------
Se me ocurrió que lo que hemos sido diciendo que sucede en Asturias también sucede en los EE.UU., también. Y sucede probablemente por todas partes en que viven seres humanos.
Para ilustrar mi punto, compartiré unas cotizaciones de este artículo:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/109610
To illustrate my point, I'll share a couple of quotes from this article:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/109610
Of course, I don't say this to excuse anyone's self-centered denial of the larger realities. I think in both places, we're creating huge problems for ourselves. We're like those frogs that cook themselves because they don't jump out of pot of water that is slowly increasing in temperature.In a Newsweek article, Robert Samuelson wrote:Since 1961, the [US] federal government has run deficits in all but five years. Only the surplus of 1969 stemmed from deliberate policy: a 10 percent income surtax reluctantly passed by Congress in 1968. The others (1998-2001) mostly reflected good fortune....
... Government acquires more and more functions, because no one dares strip away any of the existing functions. People, states, localities and industries think they have a moral entitlement to their tax breaks, benefit checks, subsides and spending programs. No one's Social Security or Medicare benefit can be reduced or modified, even if they recipient is wealthy and the cost is undesirably high. Outmoded or ineffective programs cannot be ended. .... As the population ages, taxes, budget deficits or both will rise. The increases could be substantial. The fact that we are not debating the possible consequences is a cop-out--but it is a cop-out in which the broad American public is conspicuously complicit.
------------------------------
Se me ocurrió que lo que hemos sido diciendo que sucede en Asturias también sucede en los EE.UU., también. Y sucede probablemente por todas partes en que viven seres humanos.
Para ilustrar mi punto, compartiré unas cotizaciones de este artículo:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/109610
Por supuesto, no digo esto para excusar cualquier persona por su negación egocéntrica de las realidades más grandes. Pienso en ambos lugares, estamos creando problemas enormes para nosotros mismos. Somos como esas ranas que se cocinan porque no salten del pote del agua que está aumentando lentamente de temperatura.En un artículo de Newsweek, Robert Samuelson wrote: [trans. Art] Desde 1961, el gobierno federal [estadounidense] ha tenido déficits en todos los años sino cinco. Solamente el exceso de 1969 provenida de la política deliberada: un impuesto suplementario de la renta del 10 por ciento aprobado renuentemente por Congress en 1968. Los otros (en 1998-2001) reflejaron sobre todo buena fortuna....
... El gobierno adquiere cada vez más funciones, porque nadie se atreve quitar funciones existentes. La gente, los estados, los localidades [municipalidades y concejos] y las industrias piensan que tienen un derecho moral a sus rebajas de impuestos, cheques de beneficios [prestaciones], subvenciones, y los programas del gasto. La prestación de la Seguridad Social o de Seguro de enfermedad de nadie puede ser reducida o ser modificada, incluso si el recipiente sea rico y el coste es indeseablemente alto. Los programas anticuados o ineficaces no pueden ser terminados. .... Como la población envejece, los impuestos, los déficites presupuestarios o ambos se aumentarán. Los aumentos pueden ser substanciales. El hecho de que no estemos discutiendo las consecuencias posibles es "un cop-out" [evadirse] -- pero es "un cop-out" en el cual el público americano general tiene una complicidad plenamente visible.
Last edited by Art on Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
The rank and file population of Asturies, very much like the people of West Virginia has to somehow overcome generations of being raised to be working class.
The educational systems are systematically devalued by the industries to provide a steady stream of working class people and keep the population from becoming self-sufficient. You can also add to the mix the self-hatred promoted by the industrial elites (Beverly Hillbillies, Snuffy Smith, anyone?) and the deep entrenchment of religion that serves to further divide the people and keep them looking heavenward instead of at what's being done to them down here in the real world.
Over time, the only thing the people have to be proud of is being "hard" and "redneck," so instead of striving to become more cultured and educated, they self-deprecate and cede their identities and wealth to the ruling industries (mountaintop removal ring a bell? Hello Massey Energy!). Where does that get you in the 21st century when the jobs your people have been groomed for for 200 years go to China?
And don't take this to mean that the people in either place are "stupid" or "lazy," far from it. They are hard-working, industrious, and intelligent. However, they are the victims of an industrialized classism that's very difficult to overcome.
It's freaking depressing.
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Transl. Is
La xente n’Asturies, igual que en West Virginia, tien que superar una riestra de xeneraciones que educaron a los sos fios a sentise parte de la clas trabayadora.
El sistema educativu ta torgau dafechu poles industries pa que haiga un regueru costante de xente trabayador y asina impedir que la socieda vaiga a mayores niveles d’autosuficiencia. Tamien habria que amesta-y una bona dosis de auto-odiu per parte de la elite empresarial (alcuerdase dalgun de los Beverly Hillbillies, o de Snuffy Smith?), asina como el posu profundu de la relixon que sirve de preseu pa dividir mas a la xente, empobinando-yos a mirar mas pal cielu que a lo que-yos fain nesti mundu.
Col tiempu, namai queda esi sentimientu de sentise arguyusu de ser ‘fuerte’ y ‘de clas trabayadora’. En cuenta de naguar por estudiar o meyorar su educacion, tan avezaos a menospreciase y a cede-yos la identida y la riqueza a la elite empresarial (alcordaivos de cuando quixeron frayar un monte en WV los de Massey Energy). Au-yos lleva esi tipu de mentalida nel sieglu 21, cuando tolos trabayos pa los que prepararon a esta xente hai 200 anos tan colando pa China?
Y con esto nun ye la mio intencion decir que esta xente ye ‘babayo’ o ‘folgao’, bien llonxe d’ello. Ye xente mui inquieto, intelixente y que pon enfotu nel so trabayu. Pero cuido que son victimes de un clasismo que-yos vien de la domina de la industrializacion y que ye enguedeyoso de quitase d’encima.
Ye deprimente dafechu.
The educational systems are systematically devalued by the industries to provide a steady stream of working class people and keep the population from becoming self-sufficient. You can also add to the mix the self-hatred promoted by the industrial elites (Beverly Hillbillies, Snuffy Smith, anyone?) and the deep entrenchment of religion that serves to further divide the people and keep them looking heavenward instead of at what's being done to them down here in the real world.
Over time, the only thing the people have to be proud of is being "hard" and "redneck," so instead of striving to become more cultured and educated, they self-deprecate and cede their identities and wealth to the ruling industries (mountaintop removal ring a bell? Hello Massey Energy!). Where does that get you in the 21st century when the jobs your people have been groomed for for 200 years go to China?
And don't take this to mean that the people in either place are "stupid" or "lazy," far from it. They are hard-working, industrious, and intelligent. However, they are the victims of an industrialized classism that's very difficult to overcome.
It's freaking depressing.
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Transl. Is
La xente n’Asturies, igual que en West Virginia, tien que superar una riestra de xeneraciones que educaron a los sos fios a sentise parte de la clas trabayadora.
El sistema educativu ta torgau dafechu poles industries pa que haiga un regueru costante de xente trabayador y asina impedir que la socieda vaiga a mayores niveles d’autosuficiencia. Tamien habria que amesta-y una bona dosis de auto-odiu per parte de la elite empresarial (alcuerdase dalgun de los Beverly Hillbillies, o de Snuffy Smith?), asina como el posu profundu de la relixon que sirve de preseu pa dividir mas a la xente, empobinando-yos a mirar mas pal cielu que a lo que-yos fain nesti mundu.
Col tiempu, namai queda esi sentimientu de sentise arguyusu de ser ‘fuerte’ y ‘de clas trabayadora’. En cuenta de naguar por estudiar o meyorar su educacion, tan avezaos a menospreciase y a cede-yos la identida y la riqueza a la elite empresarial (alcordaivos de cuando quixeron frayar un monte en WV los de Massey Energy). Au-yos lleva esi tipu de mentalida nel sieglu 21, cuando tolos trabayos pa los que prepararon a esta xente hai 200 anos tan colando pa China?
Y con esto nun ye la mio intencion decir que esta xente ye ‘babayo’ o ‘folgao’, bien llonxe d’ello. Ye xente mui inquieto, intelixente y que pon enfotu nel so trabayu. Pero cuido que son victimes de un clasismo que-yos vien de la domina de la industrializacion y que ye enguedeyoso de quitase d’encima.
Ye deprimente dafechu.
Very well put, Xose. There is indeed strong pride in Asturias about being 'de clase trabayadora'. People can look down on someone wearing a suit, as opposed to a factory-issue outfit, in a very superficial reading. There is a cult or aura about being 'poor', as if it were a credential you need to show to ingratiate yourself, not a symptom of truncated aspirations or lack of social mobility.Xose wrote:The rank and file population of Asturies, very much like the people of West Virginia has to somehow overcome generations of being raised to be working class...Over time, the only thing the people have to be proud of is being "hard" and "redneck," so instead of striving to become more cultured and educated, they self-deprecate and cede their identities and wealth to the ruling industries.
On the other side of the sociological spectrum you have the 'pih.os' (pijos) of Gijon and Oviedo (they would never use 'Xixon' or 'Uvieu' as the Asturian language is working-class). They speak hyper-perfect Castilian Spanish, cultivate an old-school type of privilege, send their children to private Catholic schools and are members of leisure clubs that go back 200 years. Outfitted in all the necessary accoutrements and gadgetry (Izod, Burberry's, latest Nokia handset), they too have an engrained, entrenched classism.
I'd say that both are posturing, unrealistic and forgettable. The best thing to do is for individuals, both in Asturias and West Virginia, to begin to think critically instead of inheriting this hand-me-down mentality.
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Tou d’alcuerdu dafeitu cono que dices, Xose. Si que ia verda que la xente n’Asturias ta arguyosu de ser de ‘clas trabayadora’. Hai muitos que miran mal al que viste con traxe en cuenta d’outru que gasta el mono de la empresa, ia una l.lectura abondo superficial. Tamen diria que se fai cultu a ser ‘probe’, cumu si fora una credencial pa simpatizar cona xente, ya non un sintoma d’aspiraciones torgadas ou una falta de mobilida social.
Nel outru estremu de la socioloxia asturiano tarian los ‘pih.os’ de Gijon ou Oviedo (enxamas nun chamarian a la sua ciuda nin ‘Xixon’ nin ‘Uvieu’ porque la l.lingua, pa el.los, ia sintoma de ‘clas trabayadora’). Estos falan un castel.lan hiper, tan avezaos a un privilexu social que-ys vien de l.lonxe, mandan a los sous fios a colexos catolicos ya son miembros de clubs que igual van mas p’al.lo de 200 anos. Con tolos accesorios que-ys fain falta p’amosar que nun ia xente l.lano (Lacoste, Burberry’s, lo cabeiro de Nokia en telefonia movil…), el.los tamen paez que tienen l.lantao el clasismo de la domina industrial no sou ADN.
You cuido que los dous tan representandose cumo-ys educaron, dambos son pouco realistas ya faciles d’escaecer pa dalgun que venga de fora. Lo meyor ia qu’entamen a pensar criticamente cumo individuos, tanto n’Asturias cumo en West Virginia, en cuenta de metese la mentalida heredada na tiesta ya deixase l.levar pula corriente.
Last edited by is on Sat Feb 16, 2008 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In bargaining and negotiation studies, it has been shown that people are not willing to give up an asset they own or have acquired over time. The asset is regarded as an entitlement, almost in a moral sense. They will resist giving it up and fight until the end.Art wrote:Government acquires more and more functions, because no one dares strip away any of the existing functions. People, states, localities and industries think they have a moral entitlement to their tax breaks, benefit checks, subsides and spending programs
By contrast, the impulse to try and gain something new, an asset that is beyond your reach, is much weaker. I agree, Art, that what may be happening in Asturias is that all the EU money created a sense of entitlement. That same dynamic can take root elsewhere as long as it has a strategic fit with local mentality.
But in the aggregate, it's a type of castration of independent thought, creativity, ambition and dreams for the rest of society. That's why I fear going back to a society of paralysis each time I visit Asturias. Nothing ever changes in the most conservative of senses. People in Spain associate this timelessness with dandruff (caspa), and that is what we have both in the PSOE/FSA and PP.
And that, as Xose points out, is indeed freaking depressing.
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Nos estudios de negociacion, ta nidio que la xente nun ia mui amigo de soltar un activo que-ys pertenez ou que tiene en propieda dende cuantaya. Pasin a pasu, esi activu tornase nun dreito cuasique de xeitu moral. El que nun quier soltar de la cousa vei l.luitar pur el.la fasta’l final.
Per outru l.lau, l’impulsu de bregar por daque nuevu, un activu que inda nun ta na nuesas manos, esi impulsu ia mas esmirriau. Tou d’alcuerdu contigo, Art, cuando dices que lu que pasara n’Asturias foi que tolos fondos de la UE fixeron medrar una especie de ‘entitlement’, ou dreito moral. Esa mesma dinamica bien podria biltar n’outros l.lugares si se da esti tipu d’equivalencia estratexica cona mentalida del sitiu.
Pero falando de la repercusion nel agregao, you cuido que la cultura del sofitu economicu (=fondos estructurales de la UE via el PSOE/FSA asturiano) nun fai mas qu’estrapayar el pensamientu independiente, la creativida, l’ambicion ya los suanos del restu la socieda. Pur eso tengo l.lercia a tornar a una socieda de paralisis permanente de la que torno a Asturias. Nada nunca nun camuda nel sentiu mas conservador. La xente n’Espana fala de inercia temporal ya l’asocia cona caspa (dandruff), ya eso ia lu que hai col PSOE/FSA (mirai pa Javier Fernandez…) ya’l PP.
Esa atemporalida permanente, la burbuya asturiana, cumo diz Xose, ia pa deprimir a cualquier asturianu ou post-asturianu.
Last edited by is on Sat Feb 16, 2008 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bob
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Game theory has much light to cast on ideas like this.Is wrote:In bargaining and negotiation studies, it has been shown that people are not willing to give up an asset they own or have acquired over time. The asset is regarded as an entitlement, almost in a moral sense. They will resist giving it up and fight until the end.
As for working class origins, I am proudly working class on both side of my ancestry. My Asturian grandfather worked in the zinc industry and later other heavy industries with hot smelting ovens and dangerous conditions. My Slovak grandfather had to work in the coal mines of Pennsylvania startng at age 12 (not a typo) because his father had been murdered for his pay and left dead along the railroad track.
One thing I learned from my grandfathers, however, was that I had no desire to emulate their working lives. That's how I ended up in academia.
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Trans. Is
La teoria de xuegos (‘game theory’) tien muncho qu’ufiertar pa estes cuestiones.
No que cinca los orixenes de clas, yo toi arguyosu de formar parte de la clas trabayadora per dambos llaos de la mio familia. Mio guelu asturianu trabayara na industria del zinc y darreu nos altos fornos d’otres industries, y en condiciones non mui bones. Mentanto, el mio guelu eslovacu entamara a trabayar nes mines de carbon de Pennsylvania a l’eda de 12 (nun ye una errata) porque a so pa mataranlu pol xornal, dexandolu por muertu nos railes del tren.
Una cosa que deprendiera de los dos guelos, sicasi, ye que nun tenia yo munches ganes de seguir esi camin profesional Poro, acabei de profesor na universida.
Bob, Is, and Xose are probably all right.
Although it's referring to a different situation, this quote struck me as having possible relevance to WV and Asturias.
If that were true, the best we could hope for would be for WV and Asturias to "hit bottom."
But I'm not sure that's the only path to improvement. It seems to me that a charismatic leader can paint a picture of a different kind of future and motivate people to reach for the necessary change.
Thinking back at examples of that kind of leader, many of them (or maybe all of them?) were killed (Jesus, Ghandi, ML King, Malcolm X, JF Kennedy, RF Kennedy, and most recently Bhutto). Many of them did bring about change, but at great personal cost.
It's no wonder that so many people worry about Obama's safety. We humans, especially in groups, can be extremely vicious.
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Probablemente Bob, Is, y José todos tienen razón.
Aunque está refiriendo a una situación distinta, me parece que tenga relación a la situación de WV y Asturias.
Si eso fuera verdad, el mejor que podríamos esperar estaría que WV y Asturias "toquen fondo."
Pero no estoy seguro que está la única trayectoria a la mejora. Me parece que un líder carismático puede "pintar un cuadro" de una distinta clase de futuro y motivar a gente a alcanzar para el cambio necesario.
Recordando los ejemplos de ese tipo de líder, muchos de ellos (o quizás todos?) resultaron matados (Jesús, Gandhi, ML King, Malcolm X, JF Kennedy, RF Kennedy, y recientemente Bhutto). Muchos de ellos lograron que se produjo cambios en su sociedad, pero con gran coste personal.
No me extraña que tanta gente se preocupa por la seguridad de Obama. Los seres humanos, especialmente en grupos, podemos ser extremadamente viciosos.
Although it's referring to a different situation, this quote struck me as having possible relevance to WV and Asturias.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/109695/page/3In a Newsweek article, Glenn Beck, a conservative talk-show host, wrote:The Republican Party needs to find its bottom. I'm an alcoholic. I understand what it means to bottom out. When you find your bottom—when you say, "I can't live like this anymore, I can't live this lie"—that's when Republicans and conservatives will start doing some real soul-searching to determine what their values are.
If that were true, the best we could hope for would be for WV and Asturias to "hit bottom."
But I'm not sure that's the only path to improvement. It seems to me that a charismatic leader can paint a picture of a different kind of future and motivate people to reach for the necessary change.
Thinking back at examples of that kind of leader, many of them (or maybe all of them?) were killed (Jesus, Ghandi, ML King, Malcolm X, JF Kennedy, RF Kennedy, and most recently Bhutto). Many of them did bring about change, but at great personal cost.
It's no wonder that so many people worry about Obama's safety. We humans, especially in groups, can be extremely vicious.
--------------------------
Probablemente Bob, Is, y José todos tienen razón.
Aunque está refiriendo a una situación distinta, me parece que tenga relación a la situación de WV y Asturias.
http://www.newsweek.com/id/109695/page/3En un artículo de Newsweek, Glenn Beck, un anfitrón conservadora de una programa de entrevistas, escribió wrote:El Partido Republicano necesita encontrar su "fbndo" [parte de abajo]. Soy un alcohólico. Entiendo lo que significa "tocar fondo". Cuando encuentras su fondo—cuando dices, "ya no puedo vivir así, no puedo vivir esta mentira"— en este momento es cuando los republicanos y los conservadores comenzarán a hacer alguna introspección verdadera para determinar cuáles son sus valores.
Si eso fuera verdad, el mejor que podríamos esperar estaría que WV y Asturias "toquen fondo."
Pero no estoy seguro que está la única trayectoria a la mejora. Me parece que un líder carismático puede "pintar un cuadro" de una distinta clase de futuro y motivar a gente a alcanzar para el cambio necesario.
Recordando los ejemplos de ese tipo de líder, muchos de ellos (o quizás todos?) resultaron matados (Jesús, Gandhi, ML King, Malcolm X, JF Kennedy, RF Kennedy, y recientemente Bhutto). Muchos de ellos lograron que se produjo cambios en su sociedad, pero con gran coste personal.
No me extraña que tanta gente se preocupa por la seguridad de Obama. Los seres humanos, especialmente en grupos, podemos ser extremadamente viciosos.