EMPIRES OF THE WORD

granda · Post by **granda** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:49 am

Empires of the world- Nicholas Ostler.
Publisher: Harper Perennial (June 27, 2006)
Language: English
ISBN-10: 0060935723
ISBN-13: 978-0060935726

This book tells the history of the world through the rise and decline of languages. It is not a technical linguistic study—i.e., it's not concerned with language structure—but about the "growth, development and collapse of language communities" and their cultures.

Sadly, there is hardly any mention of the Asturiano. He calls the language Astur leones and explains that the decline of the language in the 12-13th is linked to the decline of the alanos that occupated Asturias and Leon after the fall of the Roman Empire. Visigoths took control of the institutions and language and pushed Alanos to the West where the mixed with Suevos. He equals Visigoths= castillian, alanos = asturleones and suevos gallego-portugues.
Of course everything is far more complex of my brief explanation but I've found it an imaginative theory.....

is · Post by is » Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:32 pm

Interesting title, Granda, but his theory about Alans, Visigoths and Swabians--and their connection to the recession of Asturian vs. Galician--is a bit wacky, enit? Never heard of such a thing, although I'll have to find the book to see what the context is...

I think the term astur-leones, as others have pointed out in the forum, is confusing. At least to me. Maybe Mofusu knows, but I think it was the term coined by Menendez-Pidal who was trying to cluster language groups in the Iberian Peninsula.

I know the language spoken in valleys in Leon like L.laciana (pronounced Tsa-thee-ah-nah) is practically the same as West Asturian, which is what I speak. Still, the term astur-leones seems kind of obsolete. An Iranian friend in DC used to talk about astur-leones and I felt compelled to correct him each time explaining the language was simply known as asturiano.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 1:40 pm

This is entirely from memory, so it may not be correct, but I think that at one point Leon was depopulated and the Asturians made an effort to repopulate it, taking their language with them and extending its boundaries. The language was once more widely distributed than it is today, and there is still that little pocket of it in Portugal.

granda · Post by **granda** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:28 pm

The thing is that he never mentions astur-leones as a language in the whole book. It is only in one map in the whole where you can see the different languages in the Peninsula in the XII Century where the word is mentioned.
I wonder if the took the image as a loan from another place. The book is at my parents place in Asturias but the image of the map is smiilart to this one.

I will not discuss about such theory that I also find 'different' In any case I highly recommend the book. I found fascinanting chapters like the one about Spanish in South America and the lenguas generales or the how Spanish and Portugues became totality differents in just 2 generations.

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is · Post by is » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:20 pm

Here is a review of Nicholas Ostler's book published by The Guardian (March 2005). The review is by Martin Jacques, then a visiting fellow at the LSE Asian Research Centre:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2005/ma ... ianreview3

Interesting theories about language dominance as a result of mergers & acquisitions, as well as the mention of endangered languages that will die. Here's an excerpt:

"Of the approximately 7,000 language communities in the world today, more than half have fewer than 5,000 speakers, and 1,000 fewer than a dozen: many will be extinct within a generation."

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Feb 16, 2009 5:56 pm

Language loss is, of course, something that has happened for as long as our species has used language, but I would not like to see asturianu disappear. While I'm still learning it, it's a part of my family's heritage that I want to preserve.

There are still enough speakers, in my opinion, that it has a decent chance of making it into the future. One important step would be for the Spanish government to treat it in the same way that it treats other officially recognized minority languages such as gallego and catalan.

Terechu · Post by **Terechu** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:09 am

Nobody much claims Alan ancestry, because it's not cool to have Persian blood right now, but I can think of many people in Asturias and León who could perfectly well pass for Iranians.

Nadie defiende su ascendencia alana, porque no mola tener sangre persa ahora mismo, pero yo conozco un montón de gente asturiana y leonesa que podría pasar perfectamente por iraní.

granda · Post by **granda** » Tue Feb 17, 2009 8:14 am

I have quite dark skin and some people in Dubai think I am Iranian. However Dubai is an authentic melting pot and there are people for all over the world. However when I go to Saudi Arabia 75% of the people think I am farsi. I think this is because my arab is very bad and Persians speak farsi

yo soy bastante moreno y mucha gente en Dubai piensa que soy irani. De todas maneras Dubai es un autentico melting port, y aqui hay gente de todo el mundo. En Arabia Saudi, aproximadamente 75% de las gente piensa que soy persa. Creo que es el hecho de que mi arabe es muy malo y los persas hablan farsi

ayalgueru · Post by **ayalgueru** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:36 am

very interesting ! I did not know the Alani have ever been in the Asturies ,,, however I would imagine their influence would have been fairly limited ,,, never heard of alani artifacts or towns or anything else in Asturies ,,, or even in rest of Spain for that matter ...

Not that I would mind an asturian-alani connection

I think it would be very interesting ,,,

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que interesante ! nun tenia ni ideaga que los Alanos tuviern n'Asturies ,,, la verda ye que supongo la so influecia bastante pequenha ,,, nunca tuve sentio d'oxetos o cases o villes alanes o nada alano n'Asturies ... vamos ni tampoco nel restu d'Espanha ,,,

y non ye que me molestaria panada una conexion astur-alana ,,

tolo contrario pareceriame muy interesante ,,,

Post by **Art** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 3:27 am

I hadn't heard of the Alani in Iberia either. Here's what two pages in Wikipedia say. I don't know how reliable this is.

What what it's worth, they don't say anything about the north (Asturias) and it appears that the Alani were in Iberia only for a very short period.

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Tampoco había oído de los Alani en Iberia. Ésto es lo que dicen dos páginas en Wikipedia. No sé si es fiable.

Por lo que vale, no dicen nada del norte (Asturias) y parece que los Alani estuvieron en Iberia muy poco tiempo.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alans

The Alans in Hispania and Africa

Following the fortunes of the Vandals and Suevi into the Iberian peninsula (Hispania, comprising modern Portugal and Spain) in 409, the Alans led by Respendial settled in the provinces of Lusitania and Carthaginiensis: "Alani Lusitaniam et Carthaginiensem provincias, et Wandali cognomine Silingi Baeticam sortiuntur" (Hydatius). The Siling Vandals settled in Baetica, the Suevi in coastal Gallaecia, and the Asding Vandals in the rest of Gallaecia.

In 418 (or 426 according to some authors, cf. e.g. Castritius, 2007), the Alan king, Attaces, was killed in battle against the Visigoths, and this branch of the Alans subsequently appealed to the Asding Vandal king Gunderic to accept the Alan crown. The separate ethnic identity of Respendial's Alans dissolved.[19] Although some of these Alans are thought to have remained in Iberia, most went to North Africa with the Vandals in 429. Later Vandal kings in North Africa styled themselves Rex Wandalorum et Alanorum ("King of the Vandals and Alans").

There are some vestiges of the Alans in Portugal[20], namely in Alenquer (whose name may be Germanic for the Temple of the Alans, from "Alen Ker", and whose castle may have been established by them; the Alaunt is still represented in that city's coat of arms), in the construction of the castles of Torres Vedras and Almourol, and in the city walls of Lisbon, where vestigies of their presence may be found under the foundations of the Church of Santa Luzia.

In the Iberian peninsula the Alans settled in Lusitania (cf. Alentejo) and the Cartaginense provinces. They became known in retrospect for their massive hunting and fighting dog of Molosser type, the Alaunt, which they apparently introduced to Europe. The breed is extinct, but its name is carried by a giant breed of dog still called Alano that survives in the Basque Country. The dogs are traditionally used in boar hunting and cattle herding.

Modern genetic science's disclosure of the geographical distribution of historical genetic markers has convinced certain theorists of the connection between Sarmato-Alanic deep ancestral heritage in Europe and the Y-DNA paternal Haplogroup G (Y-DNA), specifically G2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispania

Germanic Hispania
Further information: Visigoths, Suebi, Alans, Vandals
Iberian Peninsula (AD 530-AD 570)
The Iberian Peninsula in the year 560AD

Rome's loss of jurisdiction in Hispania began in 409[citation needed], when the Germanic Suevi and Vandals, together with the Sarmatian Alans crossed the Rhine and ravaged Gaul until the Visigoths drove them into Iberia that same year. The Suevi established a kingdom in what is today modern Galicia and northern Portugal. The Alans' allies, the Hasdingi Vandals, established a kingdom in Gallaecia, too, occupying the region of Lusitania - modern Alentejo and Algarve, in Portugal. The Silingi Vandals briefly occupied parts of South Iberia.

Because large parts of Hispania were outside his control, the western Roman emperor, Honorius (r. 395-423), commissioned his sister, Galla Placidia, and her husband Athaulf, the Visigothic king, to restore order in the Iberian Peninsula. Honorius gave them the rights to settle in and to govern the area in return for defending it.

The highly romanized Visigoths entered Hispania in 415 and managed to compel the Vandals and Alans to sail for North Africa in 429. In 484 the Visigoths established Toledo as the capital of their monarchy. Successive Visigothic kings ruled Hispania as patricians who held imperial commissions to govern in the name of the Roman emperor. In 585 the Visigoths conquered the Suevi kingdom, thus controlling almost all Hispania.