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Ah, that's an interesting association, Bob. I once talked with a Morris Dancer who had done some research into the origins. As I recall, he said he thought it was impossible to know what the term "Morris Dance" referred to, but that some thought it was the Moors and others came up with other origins. (I can't remember what they were! The moor like a bog?).
Your connection with the reconquest would make sense, but I still wonder how would it then have jumped to England?
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Ah, esto es una asociación interesante, Bob. Una vez hablé con un bailarín Morris que había hecho alguna investigación en los orígenes. Como recuerdo, me dijo que pensó que es imposible saber los orígenes del término "Morris Dance", pero que algúnos pensan que era relaciado con los moros y los otros levantan otros orígenes. (¡No puedo recordar los otros! Moor como llanura?).
Tu conexión con la reconquista tendría sentido, pero todavía me pregunto cómo entonces habría saltado a Inglaterra.
Antroxu
Moderator: Moderators
Bob
There are LOTS of sites on the origins of Morris Dances. For example, you can see
http://rsc.anu.edu.au/~pdc/molonglo/origins.html
This man picks two theories on the origins of these dances, the Pagan theory and the Moorish theory. It goes without saying that I prefer the first one
There are LOTS of sites on the origins of Morris Dances. For example, you can see
http://rsc.anu.edu.au/~pdc/molonglo/origins.html
This man picks two theories on the origins of these dances, the Pagan theory and the Moorish theory. It goes without saying that I prefer the first one
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Bob
- Moderator
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- Location: Connecticut and Massachusetts
- asturias_and_me:
Mouguias,
If we go with the theory that the Morris dance was introduced to England during the reign of Henry VII, one of the two theories cited by the website you mentioned, there is at least an historical framework in which to understand it. Henry VII arranged the marriage of his son to Catherine of Aragon, daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella. This Spanish connection could have served to introduce the dance to England. Some accounts allege that the faces of the dancers were originally painted black (the traditional English representation of the Moors--witness Shakespeare's Othello).
Of course, none of this precludes an even older pagan connection. In any event, I always find your posts interesting and thought-provoking. Please keep them coming.
Bob Martinez
If we go with the theory that the Morris dance was introduced to England during the reign of Henry VII, one of the two theories cited by the website you mentioned, there is at least an historical framework in which to understand it. Henry VII arranged the marriage of his son to Catherine of Aragon, daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella. This Spanish connection could have served to introduce the dance to England. Some accounts allege that the faces of the dancers were originally painted black (the traditional English representation of the Moors--witness Shakespeare's Othello).
Of course, none of this precludes an even older pagan connection. In any event, I always find your posts interesting and thought-provoking. Please keep them coming.
Bob Martinez
Bob
I prefer the Pagan theory mainly because...well, because I like to believe that pagan roots are filling most of our cultural inheritance.
However, the supposedly-historical explanations for a tradition are often less reliable than you might think. Let me give you two examples:
-In Ireland they say that the so-called Black Irish are descendants of Spaniards who wrecked the Armada, in 1588. Of course it is total nonsense, unless those sailors were supermen who just didn`t rest since they reached the coast until they died. Today scientists say that black-haired people in Ireland and Wales come from a very ancient racial strain, Upper Paleolithic, the one that first populated Europe moving northward from the Iberian Peninsula. That is why Basques (and I would swear, Asturians too) share much of their Y-Chromosome with Welsh and Irish. The legend about the Armada sailors sure was born not so long ago.
-In Asturias, in Cape Penas, where most Asturian-Virginians were born, there is a village called Antromeru. Their neighbours say that people from Antromeru are quite hostile to strangers, they marry among themselves, and they supposedly have a distinctly lighter hair than most Asturians. Legend says that they are descendants of a Viking invasion. Again this is impossible, no such settlement was ever recorded, and besides the word "Viking" was not known here until very recent times. If legend has some basis, these Antromeru people may descend from inmigrants who came from the north, due to salt trade, in Middle Ages.
My point is, these Moorish dances might have reached royal courts through some strange path, but I am almost certain they have a religious meaning in origin. You say that dancers paint their faces in black, well that would fit perfect in the myths about gods of light and gods of darkness. In Irish myths the Tuatha De Danaan, for example, fought the dark skinned Fomorians and defeated them. This represents the conquer of sun and light against chaos and darkness.
Eloy Gomez Pellon collects a long forgotten tradition in western Asturias which was held in Antroxu. Two actors, one disguised as a Moor and the other one as a Christian, had to visit each house in the village, as some sort of bidding, and then fight a (fake) fight in each of them. The Moor was defeated each time. I think the meaning is obvious, the sun-god defeats the dark-god, winter, and brings summer and life back to the crops and the fields. They visited each house in the village to bring good luck in the coming season, which is always the ultimate reason of bidding.
I am glad you enjoy my posts, when I start writing I just can`t stop!!!
I prefer the Pagan theory mainly because...well, because I like to believe that pagan roots are filling most of our cultural inheritance.
However, the supposedly-historical explanations for a tradition are often less reliable than you might think. Let me give you two examples:
-In Ireland they say that the so-called Black Irish are descendants of Spaniards who wrecked the Armada, in 1588. Of course it is total nonsense, unless those sailors were supermen who just didn`t rest since they reached the coast until they died. Today scientists say that black-haired people in Ireland and Wales come from a very ancient racial strain, Upper Paleolithic, the one that first populated Europe moving northward from the Iberian Peninsula. That is why Basques (and I would swear, Asturians too) share much of their Y-Chromosome with Welsh and Irish. The legend about the Armada sailors sure was born not so long ago.
-In Asturias, in Cape Penas, where most Asturian-Virginians were born, there is a village called Antromeru. Their neighbours say that people from Antromeru are quite hostile to strangers, they marry among themselves, and they supposedly have a distinctly lighter hair than most Asturians. Legend says that they are descendants of a Viking invasion. Again this is impossible, no such settlement was ever recorded, and besides the word "Viking" was not known here until very recent times. If legend has some basis, these Antromeru people may descend from inmigrants who came from the north, due to salt trade, in Middle Ages.
My point is, these Moorish dances might have reached royal courts through some strange path, but I am almost certain they have a religious meaning in origin. You say that dancers paint their faces in black, well that would fit perfect in the myths about gods of light and gods of darkness. In Irish myths the Tuatha De Danaan, for example, fought the dark skinned Fomorians and defeated them. This represents the conquer of sun and light against chaos and darkness.
Eloy Gomez Pellon collects a long forgotten tradition in western Asturias which was held in Antroxu. Two actors, one disguised as a Moor and the other one as a Christian, had to visit each house in the village, as some sort of bidding, and then fight a (fake) fight in each of them. The Moor was defeated each time. I think the meaning is obvious, the sun-god defeats the dark-god, winter, and brings summer and life back to the crops and the fields. They visited each house in the village to bring good luck in the coming season, which is always the ultimate reason of bidding.
I am glad you enjoy my posts, when I start writing I just can`t stop!!!
Bob's right! Your posts are always quite engaging and I learn a lot from them.
I'm interested in figuring out the meaning of one word you've used: "bidding." What word in Spanish would that be? I'm not sure whether it's translating well as bidding. Is it "offering" (oferta) or "prayers" (oración)?
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¡Bob tiene razon! Tus mensajes son siempre muy cautivadores y aprendo mucho de ellos.
Estoy interesado en el significado de una palabra que has usado: "bidding". ¿Qué la palabra en español sería que? No estoy seguro si esto traduce bien como "bidding." Es "oferta" (offering) o "oración" (prayers)?
I'm interested in figuring out the meaning of one word you've used: "bidding." What word in Spanish would that be? I'm not sure whether it's translating well as bidding. Is it "offering" (oferta) or "prayers" (oración)?
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¡Bob tiene razon! Tus mensajes son siempre muy cautivadores y aprendo mucho de ellos.
Estoy interesado en el significado de una palabra que has usado: "bidding". ¿Qué la palabra en español sería que? No estoy seguro si esto traduce bien como "bidding." Es "oferta" (offering) o "oración" (prayers)?
I have just checked my thickest dictionary, and apparently the right word wouldn`t be “bidding” but rather “Christmas box” or “New Year gift”. In Spanish the word would be “aguinaldo” and in Asturian, “aguilandu”. I am glad also that you find my posts interesting, the thing is, in this message board I can talk precisely about the topics that I enjoy most.
Wow, neither of those is in my dictionaries. They must be very old words not in very much use now.
That's a fascinating idea that someone would bring a gift at new Years to bring good luck (and fertility, I assume?) in the New Year. Even though we still do the gift-giving, we sure don't remember its original meaning, do we? (Well, you do!)
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Vaya, ninguno de aquellos están en mis diccionarios. Deben ser palabras muy viejas que no son en empleados tanto ahora.
Es una idea fascinante que alguien traería un regalo en Año Nuevo para traer suerte (y la fertilidad, supongo?) en el Año Nuevo. Incluso aunque todavía damos regalos, seguramente no recordamos el significado original de los regalos, verdad? (¡Bueno, tu, sí!)
That's a fascinating idea that someone would bring a gift at new Years to bring good luck (and fertility, I assume?) in the New Year. Even though we still do the gift-giving, we sure don't remember its original meaning, do we? (Well, you do!)
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Vaya, ninguno de aquellos están en mis diccionarios. Deben ser palabras muy viejas que no son en empleados tanto ahora.
Es una idea fascinante que alguien traería un regalo en Año Nuevo para traer suerte (y la fertilidad, supongo?) en el Año Nuevo. Incluso aunque todavía damos regalos, seguramente no recordamos el significado original de los regalos, verdad? (¡Bueno, tu, sí!)
I am now reading an Icelandic Saga, "Saga of Nial the Burned". It tells of the time before Iceland became Christian, and one of the ceremonies it mentions is Yule, winter solstice. Ancient Icelanders, it seems, used to celebrate it exchanging gifts. "Yule" or something like that is still an English word, isn`t it? Christ-mass is just the Christian translation of it, just like Candle-mass is the translation of Imbolc and All-Hallow`s-eve, Halloween, the tranlation of Samhain.
Our "aguinaldo/aguilandu" is very much like your Halloween "trick or treat". There is a difference in the date: just as the beginning of summer can be celebrated in summer solstice or MayDay, so the beginning of the year can be held on winter solstice or Halloween. Imbolc-Carnival are also close equivalent.
Again Gomez Pellon says that the most old, pure forms of aguilandu were like this: the male teenagers in the village made a band, and went visiting each house of the village. They asked the dwellers for a gift, and if they complied and gave them some eggs or sausages, the teens sang a song or else, if someone in the family had died recently, said a prayer. Then, the leader of the band took a sprig of holly and offered it to the dweller (holly, then, is a symbol of christmas in Asturias as much as in England) while saying "Tantas como tiene de hojas, tenga usted de buenas horas, tantas como thiene de granos, tenga usted de buenos anos" "may you have as many good hours as this sprig has leaves, may you have as many good years as this sprig has fruits". The meaning is quite obvious, isn`t it?
Our "aguinaldo/aguilandu" is very much like your Halloween "trick or treat". There is a difference in the date: just as the beginning of summer can be celebrated in summer solstice or MayDay, so the beginning of the year can be held on winter solstice or Halloween. Imbolc-Carnival are also close equivalent.
Again Gomez Pellon says that the most old, pure forms of aguilandu were like this: the male teenagers in the village made a band, and went visiting each house of the village. They asked the dwellers for a gift, and if they complied and gave them some eggs or sausages, the teens sang a song or else, if someone in the family had died recently, said a prayer. Then, the leader of the band took a sprig of holly and offered it to the dweller (holly, then, is a symbol of christmas in Asturias as much as in England) while saying "Tantas como tiene de hojas, tenga usted de buenas horas, tantas como thiene de granos, tenga usted de buenos anos" "may you have as many good hours as this sprig has leaves, may you have as many good years as this sprig has fruits". The meaning is quite obvious, isn`t it?
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Miguel Angel
- Translator
- Posts: 25
- Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2003 7:42 pm
- asturias_and_me:
Art said:
This remind me the old "turn-about" days the Romans celebrated in which the lowly guy become king/emperor for a short period. Thats very much like the carnival's breaking the routine in order to maintain the social rules.
That's the idea of carnival, the roman "saturnalia". I think this custome continue in the Middle Age as the king of fools (I ignore whether that's the correct name, in spanish is traslated as "rey de los locos"), a fool or dumb person who was faked created as king for only a day, in a town, to determinate the rules, as you can see in the Disney's film "the huntchback of Notredame".
Art also said:
It's sort of comical that those who were on the top of the pecking order don't understand the usefulness of these traditions in maintining their own privileged status.
Well, that was the age of the rise of the labour movement, there was also riots because of the lack of food and the consume taxes (I don't know exactly what this was), assaults (which were suspected to be produced because of alcoholism, press talked about "el alcohol y la navaja", although probably there were social causes ). Violence was in the air, upper classes didn't want more of that. In the moderne age Carnival was probably useful, it wasn't anymore in Twnty Century (That's what they probably though). Remember that Franco banned Carnival, he though it was dangerous for him.
This remind me the old "turn-about" days the Romans celebrated in which the lowly guy become king/emperor for a short period. Thats very much like the carnival's breaking the routine in order to maintain the social rules.
That's the idea of carnival, the roman "saturnalia". I think this custome continue in the Middle Age as the king of fools (I ignore whether that's the correct name, in spanish is traslated as "rey de los locos"), a fool or dumb person who was faked created as king for only a day, in a town, to determinate the rules, as you can see in the Disney's film "the huntchback of Notredame".
Art also said:
It's sort of comical that those who were on the top of the pecking order don't understand the usefulness of these traditions in maintining their own privileged status.
Well, that was the age of the rise of the labour movement, there was also riots because of the lack of food and the consume taxes (I don't know exactly what this was), assaults (which were suspected to be produced because of alcoholism, press talked about "el alcohol y la navaja", although probably there were social causes ). Violence was in the air, upper classes didn't want more of that. In the moderne age Carnival was probably useful, it wasn't anymore in Twnty Century (That's what they probably though). Remember that Franco banned Carnival, he though it was dangerous for him.
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VideoblogASTURIAS
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:17 am
- Location: Oviedo - Asturias - España
- asturias_and_me:
- Contact:
Vídeo del Antroxu 2012 o Carnaval en Aviles
No os defraudará este vídeo de 7 min del Antroxu 2012 en Avilés
Resulta divertidísimo con el Descenso Folklórico de la calle Galiana. Bajan artilugios flotantes en un baño de espuma
Nosotros vamos disfrazados de Guardia Civil y radar
http://videoblogasturias.com/2012/02/20 ... iles-2012/
Ojalá os guste
Resulta divertidísimo con el Descenso Folklórico de la calle Galiana. Bajan artilugios flotantes en un baño de espuma
Nosotros vamos disfrazados de Guardia Civil y radar
http://videoblogasturias.com/2012/02/20 ... iles-2012/
Ojalá os guste
+ 300 Vídeos y fotos comentadas para conocer Asturias y sus 78 concejos: playas, fiestas, pueblos, ciudades, naturaleza, deportes
+ 300 annotated videos and photos to learn Asturias and its 78 councils: beaches, festivals, towns, cities, nature, sports
+ 300 annotated videos and photos to learn Asturias and its 78 councils: beaches, festivals, towns, cities, nature, sports
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VideoblogASTURIAS
- Posts: 7
- Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2012 11:17 am
- Location: Oviedo - Asturias - España
- asturias_and_me:
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2 Vídeos Antroxu 2012 en Oviedo: Desfile y ambiente nocturn
Divertido el Antroxu de Oviedo 2012. Grabamos 2 vídeos:
El 1º realizando el Desfile en sentido contrario, disfrazados de TV de bajo coste, y grabando a todos los participantes
El 2º recorriendo las calles ovetenses de noche, y entrevistando a los disfraces más divertidos
http://videoblogasturias.com/2012/02/28 ... iedo-2012/
Ojalá os guste
El 1º realizando el Desfile en sentido contrario, disfrazados de TV de bajo coste, y grabando a todos los participantes
El 2º recorriendo las calles ovetenses de noche, y entrevistando a los disfraces más divertidos
http://videoblogasturias.com/2012/02/28 ... iedo-2012/
Ojalá os guste
+ 300 Vídeos y fotos comentadas para conocer Asturias y sus 78 concejos: playas, fiestas, pueblos, ciudades, naturaleza, deportes
+ 300 annotated videos and photos to learn Asturias and its 78 councils: beaches, festivals, towns, cities, nature, sports
+ 300 annotated videos and photos to learn Asturias and its 78 councils: beaches, festivals, towns, cities, nature, sports
Carnival in Avilés
Avilés enjoys its "Descent of the Galiana"
24 floats took part in the 28th edition of the celebration on Galiana Street.
More info in Spanish: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descenso_I ... de_Galiana
Antroxu in Avilés 2015
Thanks to Vic Suárez for originally posting this link.
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Antroxu en Avilés
Avilés disfruta con su Descenso de Galiana
Veinticuatro artilugios tomaron parte en la XXVIII edición de la convocatoria fluvial.
Más información en castellano: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descenso_I ... de_Galiana
Gracias a Vic Suárez por pegar este eslabón.
Antroxu en Avilés 2015
Avilés enjoys its "Descent of the Galiana"
24 floats took part in the 28th edition of the celebration on Galiana Street.
More info in Spanish: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descenso_I ... de_Galiana
Antroxu in Avilés 2015
Thanks to Vic Suárez for originally posting this link.
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Antroxu en Avilés
Avilés disfruta con su Descenso de Galiana
Veinticuatro artilugios tomaron parte en la XXVIII edición de la convocatoria fluvial.
Más información en castellano: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descenso_I ... de_Galiana
Gracias a Vic Suárez por pegar este eslabón.
Antroxu en Avilés 2015