The Vatican and gay marriages

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 8:58 am

In light of the new Pope's recent condemnation of gay marriage, the Spanish parliament's lower house's adoption of a bill allowing gay couples to marry and adopt, and Connecticut's legalization of civil unions between same-sex couples, I'm curious what our members think about the issues.

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trans. Art

A la luz de la condenación reciente del Papa nuevo de matrimonio gay, la adopción de la Cámara de Diputados española de un proyecto de ley que permite a parejas gays casarse y adoptar, y la legalización del Connecticut de uniones civiles entre parejas de mismo sexo, soy curioso lo que nuestros miembros piensan en estas cuestiones.

Yanga · Post by **Yanga** » Sat Apr 23, 2005 1:39 pm

Creo que el matrimonio les da unos derechos que como simples parejas no tenían. En mi opinión dos personas que llevan tiempo viviendo juntas como pareja deben tener los mismos derechos estén casados o no.

En cuanto a la adopción estoy totalmente en desacuerdo. Los adultos podemos entenderlo o no pero creo que para los niños puede ser muy difícil.

Esto es lo que yo pienso Bob. ¿Y tu?

Perdón por no ponerlo en inglés pero tengo miedo a no darme a entender correctamente.

Saludos

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trans. Art

I believe that marriage gives them [couples] a few rights that those who are simply couples do not have. In my opinion two persons who have spent time living together as couple must have the same rights whether they're married or not.

As for adoption I am totally in disagreement. As adults we can understand it or not but I believe that for the children it can be very difficult.

This is what I think Bob. And you?

Pardon me for not writing this in English but I am afraid I might not express myself correctly.

Regards

Post by **Art** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 1:48 am

What has the reaction been in Spain to that legislation?

It's interesting to watch the shift in beliefs. During the 1980s the consensus in the US seemed to be that homosexuality was "unnatural." Even intellectuals accepted this stance unquestioningly.

I once asked the dean of my college how homosexuality could be unnatural, given that female cows hump each other? Cows are natural. The dean didn't have a reply, but it would be silly to think that he could have. I doubt that (before that moment) he had ever given an ounce of critical thought to the issue. All of us just accepted what we had been told by the generations that came before us.

In recent years, it's obvious that many among the younger generations are not nearly as threatened by homosexuality my parents' generation was.

There is still a lot of opposition to normalization for gays, whether it be in marriage, legal rights, or even just acceptance. I sometimes think that this vigorous opposition we are witnessing now is the last breath of a dinosaur, but I'm probably overly optimistic.

What amazes me the most is the intensity and the extreme violence that the issue brings out. Why is that? What is it about this issue that is so threatening?

When I hear people say that we must "defend marriage" I'm honestly dumbfounded. What exactly is the problem? It's not going to affect my marriage. How could it?

I realize that all of us, especially as we get older, are resistant to change, but how does this issue impact anyone negatively--unless you're a gay person facing discrimination?

Here's my explanation:

It's in our nature to prefer that everyone else be like us. When someone makes it clear that they're different in some way, that differentiation creates anxiety.
When we're anxious about something, we tend to take emotional positions. It's usually hard to justify these positions rationally because they have nothing to do with rationality.
Human relations rapidly deteriorate from then on and it's very difficult to recover rational behavior.

None of us are angels; we all act like this, although to slightly differing degrees.

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¿Qué es la reacción a aquella legislación en España?

Es interesante seguir el cambio en las creencias. Durante los años 1980 el acuerdo general en EU pareció ser que la homosexualidad era "antinatural". Incluso los intelectuales aceptaron esta postura incondicionalmente.

Una vez pregunté al decano de mi colegio, ¿cómo podría ser que la homosexualidad sea antinatural, dado que monta una vaca (femenina) sobre otra? Las vacas son naturales. El decano no tenía ni una respuesta, pero sería tonto pensar que podría tener una. Dudo que (antes de aquel momento) alguna vez hubiera dado una pizca de pensamiento crítico al tema. Todos aceptamos lo que las generaciones anteriores nos habían dicho.

En años recientes, es obvio que muchos entre las generaciones jovenes no son ni con mucho tan amenazados por la homosexualidad que la generación de mis padres.

Hay todavía mucha oposición a la normalización para gays, sea del matrimonio, de los derechos legales, o hasta de la aceptación solamente. A veces pienso que esta oposición vigorosa que vivimos ahora es el último aliento de un dinosaurio, pero probablemente soy demasiado optimista.

Lo que me asombra más es la intensidad y la violencia extrema que el tema provoca. ¿Por qué es esto? ¿Qué es de este tema que nos amenaza tanto?

Cuando oigo alguien deciendo que debemos "defender el matrimonio" francamente me anonada. ¿Que es el problema exactamente? Esto no va a afectar mi matrimonio. ¿Cómo podría?

Comprendo que, sobre todo como envejecemos, somos resistentes a cambiarnos. ¿Pero cómo afectanos negativamente este asunto - a no ser que sea un gay que afronta la discriminación?

Aquí está mi explicación:

Está en nuestra naturaleza para preferir que todos los demás parezcan a nosotros. Cuando alguien lo hace evidente que es diferente de algún modo, esta diferenciación crea la ansiedad.
Cuando estamos ansiosos por algo, tendemos a tomar posiciones emocionales. Es por lo general difícil de justificar estas posiciones racionalmente porque no tienen nada que ver con la racionalidad.
Relaciones humanas rápidamente deterioran de aquí en adelante y es muy difícil de recuperar el comportamiento racional.

Ninguno de nosotros es un ángel; actuamos como esto, aunque a grados que se diferencian un poco.

Terechu · Post by **Terechu** » Sun Apr 24, 2005 5:54 am

The reaction was ferocious in right wing sectors and religious sectors, to the point that Catholics, Jews and Muslims of Spain have issued a joint statement condemning the new law. Again, these unlikely bedfellows join forces to prevent those who don't don't do as they say from enjoying the basic rights of any citizen.
The rest of the country might like it more or less, but there's not much of an uproar. Who hasn't got a gay family member?

As to adopting children, I have two second cousins who grew up in orphanages after both their parents were killed in the Civil War and both of them say, without hesitation, that they would prefer to be raised by same-sex parents a thousand times rather than grow up without any parents at all.
For those of you who haven't made up your mind what's better for a child, I invite you to imagine how you would have felt if you would had never been able to go home after school, but had to stay with teachers and schoolmates the rest of your childhood.
The sheer helplessness of a child without parents is reason enough to allow - or should I say beg? - anyone who is able to give him/her a stable, loving environment to adopt him/her.
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La reacción fue feroz en los sectores de derechas y en los sectores religiosos, hasta el punto que los católicos, musulmanes y judíos de España han emitido un comunicado conjunto condenando la nueva ley. De nuevo unen sus fuerzas estos extraños compañeros de cama para impedir que aquéllos que no hacen lo que ellos quieren puedan disfrutar de los derechos básicos de cualquier ciudadano.
Al resto del país puede gustarle más o menos, pero no ha habido una gran bronca. ¿Quién no tiene algún gay en la familia?

En cuanto a la adopción de niños, yo tengo unos primos segundos que quedaron huérfanos durante la Guerra Civil y los dos dicen, sin dudarlo ni un momento, que hubieran preferido mil veces ser criados por padres del mismo sexo que no tener padres.
Para los que aún no habéis decidido lo que es mejor para los niños, os sugiero que imaginéis qué habría sido de vosotros, si después de clase no hubiéseis podido iros nunca a casa, y hubiérais tenido que quedaros con los maestros y compañeros el resto de vuestra infancia.
La absoluta indefensión de un niño pequeño sin padres es motivo suficiente para permitir - o mejor para rogar - que cualquiera que pueda darles un entorno familiar estable y cariñoso pueda adoptarles.

Manuel A Gonzalez · Post by **Manuel A Gonzalez** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 12:30 pm

Always remember that there are many many Gay Asturianos in Asturias and in the US. Remember that they are our brothers, sisters, aunts, and uncles, cousin etc.

As for the adoption issue, all of the scientific evidence has demonstrated that children raised by gay/lesbian parents are no more nor no less well adjusted as their peers raised by "straight" parents. Also, the sexual identity of the children of gay/lesbian parents is not effected by their parents' orientation...otherwise, your chance of being gay/lesbian is not higher because your parents are gay/lesbian.

I feel that the decision to allow gays/lesbians to marry in Spain needs to be applauded!!! The US is still in the dark ages over the issue. We always worry about sex in the US and the issues that the conservative christian churches have with sex and sexuality. Gays and lesbians are only interested in protecting their realtionships as well as their assessts......we could care less about the religious stuff!!!! Also, marriages in most countries, including Spain, is in such disarry that gays and lesbians can't harm it anymore than heterosexuales already have done so.

The gay community in Asturias is small and mostly underground. Many move to Madrid where it is out and proud. Madrid has one of the largest gay communities that I have ever seen and Barcelona is not far behind!!!

I think the decision to allow gays to marry in Spain is another reason to move back to Spain..........

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Apr 25, 2005 1:08 pm

On the adoption issue, I think it is worth keeping in mind that the vast majority of gay and lesbian people were born to heterosexual people and have been raised by them. Clearly, their sexuality was not determined by that of their parents, and I see little reason to think that gay and lesbian parents would be any more or less likely to have their children become gay and lesbian than the probability that already exists in the general population.

Xose · Post by **Xose** » Fri May 13, 2005 3:26 pm

It's driven by ignorance for some, and simple meanspiritedness for others.

I say if gays can't have all of the rights everyone else does, they shouldn't have to pay as many taxes. Now THAT would get the politicians hopping....

Post by **Art** » Fri May 13, 2005 3:53 pm

It's odd that the right keeps claiming that gays want "special" rights. The rights in question are the same rights anyone else has already. Of course, they are "special" in the sense that they're "wonderful." I'm with Bush: I think we should spread the democratic ideal to everyone worldwide.

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Qué raro que la derecha sigue diciendo que los gays quieren derechos "especiales". Los derechos en cuestión son los mismos derechos que cualquier otro ya tiene. Desde luego, son derechos "especiales" en el sentido que ellos son "maravillosos". Estoy con Bush: Pienso que deberíamos extender el ideal democrático a cada uno del mundo.

Post by **Art** » Sat May 14, 2005 3:18 am

Hi, Lisardo,

I was joking, but it may not have come across as humor in Castilian. Bush says he wants to spread democracy and its values around the globe, but he's destroying it in the US.

I wonder if politics has to be uplifting words and actions that don't match the words?

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Hola, Lisardo,

Estaba bromeando, pero es posible (¡probable!) que no lo traduje bien en castellano. Bush dice que quiere diseminarse la democracia y sus valores por todo el globo, pero la está destruyendo en los EE.UU.

¿Me pregunto si la política tiene que ser palabras que anima y actos que no corresponde a las palabras?

bartletrules · Post by **bartletrules** » Sat May 14, 2005 9:44 pm

Well, I think gays deserve the same legal rights than any other citizen in our countries, as they pay their taxes, work, live and die the same way that we all do. BUT there's an important exception for me: gay adoption.

I've read all that stuff about scientific studies that categorically affirm there's no influence on children who grow up with gay couples. I'm sorry, but I do not trust those studies:

1.- We all know there are so many political & economical interests involved in the publishing of some 'scientific' studies. It's easy for a sugar manufacturer to finance a research, which will finally conclude that sugar is plenty of benefits for human body: sugar provides energy... but they will forget to mention that an excess of sugar could bring us obesity, diabetes...
And nowadays it is so unpopular to confront gay lobbies, so researchers could tend to reach politically correct results in their work.

2.- Though all those studies deny any relation between parents and sexual orientation of children, it's not ALL that matters -whether the child is gay/lesbian or not-. That same child will grow up with friends who -most of them- will have one father and one mother. And maybe when that kid is 13 years old, his/her fathers/mothers could explain that situation in an adult way, to make the kid completely understand the situation. But during those first years at school, he/she will feel different, and could be isolated or discriminated by classmates, neighbours...

I know that we agree these attitudes MUST BE CORRECTED by way of a right education, BUT I think we agree that it isn't easy or fast to educate the people (all of us) and make us change our minds in some subjects, too.

So, I think it's too soon for so many changes to be accepted by the majority of us. There's still many, many people who consider homosexuality as 'evil', to take the next two steps (marriage, adoption) so fast. At least for me, gay adoption is not acceptable by now.

And finally, referring to the Spanish Parliament approval of gay marriage, (except for the adoption, that is opposed by both religious groups -catholics, jews, muslims- and center-right wing Popular Party) it was a stupid obsession of Government (and gay lobbies, too) to name that union as marriage. I think it's stupid from their side (Government & gay lobbies) because they were 'only' fighting for legal rights (which won't change whatever the chosen denomination for the union was), and the other groups do believe there are religious and social concernings about the "marriage" consideration.

Was it too difficult to name it with whatever other expression? Gays would get their legal rights, and the religious beliefs of the others would've been respected -I mean, not considering adoption-. I think it would've been a smarter political move.

Post by **Art** » Sat May 14, 2005 10:51 pm

In the US, gays adopting kids has been common for quite a while now. If there was any problem with it, I'm sure the right would have been all over it. I haven't heard anything, except for fears and uncomfortable feelings.

The rights of individuals should never be decided based on the fears and discomforts of another group.

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En los EE.UU., gays adoptando a niños ha sido común hace bastante tiempo. Si hubiera cualquier problema con esto, estoy seguro que la derecha habría estado gritandolo de los montes. No he oído nada, aparte de miedos y incomodidades.

Los derechos de individuos nunca deberían ser decididos basados en los miedos y las incomodidades de otros grupos.

bartletrules · Post by **bartletrules** » Sat May 14, 2005 11:07 pm

Art wrote: The rights of individuals should never be decided based on the fears and discomforts of another group.

Of course, it's the path to totalitarianism, to discrimation of all kind. And if you assure me that there is REALLY no trouble with the kids, I do not have anything more to say. But I must confess I still can't feel comfortable with gay adoption, after all. I know it may be my fault, but I can't.

Post by **Art** » Sat May 14, 2005 11:18 pm

That's okay. I think it's best to know what your discomforts are. Like any of us, I have strong reactions that get me in trouble sometimes. I've got to know what they are if I want to relate more effectively.

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Está bien. Creo que es mejor saber cuales incomodidades tienes. Como todos, tengo reacciones fuertes que me meten en problemas de vez y cuando. Tengo que saberlas si quiero tener relacciones buenas y eficaces.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sun May 15, 2005 1:59 pm

I've heard several people express the idea that marriage is a religious concept and that it should be left to the religious organizations to define it, while what we think of as marriage in the civil sense is really a contract between two consenting adults. In short, they don't think that the government should be in the business of defining marriage, and that civil unions (legal contracts) should not dsicriminate on the basis of gender or sexual orientation (equal rigfhts for all).

They have also mentioned that the idea that marriage is between one man and one woman ignores conditions such as androgen insensitivity syndrome, pseudohermaphroditism, and other such conditions. What do our members think about this?

enedina · Post by **enedina** » Thu May 19, 2005 12:13 pm

En cuanto al matrimonio gay, estoy de acuerdo con él.
Adopción: soy maestra, y todos los días, trabajo con niños/as criados por matrimonios heterosexuales, algunos de ellos son malcriados, violentos, groseros... Se puede ver en las noticias lo que se hacen los adolescentes entre sí. Y como dije anteriormente estos niños/as vienen de hogares heterosexuales. ¿Por qué no dar una oportunidad a los gays para ver como educan a los niños/as?.
Es raro la semana que no sale en medios informativos agresiones de parejae heterosexuales, ¿no es mejor para los niños/as criarse en un hogar donde no haya violencia aunque sea gay?.
Saludos.

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trans. Art

As for the marriage of gay couples, I agree with him.
Adoption: I am a teacher, and every day I work with children raised by heterosexual couples. Some of them are bad-mannered, violent, rude.... It's possible to see in the news what become teenagers do among themselves. And as I said previously, these children come from heterosexual homes. Why not give an opportunity to the gays to see how they educate their children?
It is a rare week in which we don't hear in the news about the aggressions of a heterosexual couple. Wouldn't it be better for the children to grow up in a home where there is no violence, even if the parents are gay?
Best regards.