Disappointed

[Barbara Alonso Novellino]

I joined this Website in October 2003...I was very excited to have a website where we could talk to people from the same area of Spain my family came from.

The whole idea, I thought, of this forum was to exchange ideas, etc. Well at first this is what we did...and it was something that I looked forward to reading whenever there was a post.

Then came the Election. I found, after not too much time had passed, that most of the members of this Forum are Liberal Democrats or just plain Democrats. It was extremely difficult for me to read all the negative things being said about our President Bush...so many of the things were insulting and really rude. I answered them because they made me very angry. I have to say that Xose was the worse offender with his insults and name calling. I shouldn't have been surprised though because we had this very same argument in the first election.

If that wasn't bad enough we had the go around with Happy Holidays or Merry Christmas...when you all know in fact, December 25 is Christ's Birtdhay whether you believe it or not.

I am extremely disappointed in what this forum has become. There are over 600 members and we only hear from a few. I guess there are many who were disappointed as I am. I am tired of reading all the insults and do not intend to answer any more. I know there are some members who got disgusted and stopped contributing their thoughts, what a shame because I am sure they had interesting things to say.

Whenever I posted something I knew as sure as there is a Heaven above (athough I am sure there are some who don't believe that) that either Art, Xose, Ron and now Elil would come back with something . You make it sound like being a Conservative is naive when in fact you are the ones who are naive.

So, unless there is a post that is interesting and says something that is neither insulting or degrading I won't answer. Not because I don't have plenty to say, but because to tell you the truth I can't be bothered. What a sad commentary isn't it...

[Terechu]

Barbara, you make the word "democrat" sound like an insult. Democrats are those who, although they might not agree with you, will defend your right to express your opinion, regardless.
Unfortunely the same is not true for conservatives. If you don't share their opinions they will try to shut you up. It's their way or the highway and we've had plenty of proof throughout history.
A democrat might not respect your opinions but they will respect you as a person.
I don't understand why you feel disappointed because most people on this forum disagree with you, it's a healthy exercise of democracy to disagree.
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Barbara, haces que la palabra "demócrata" suene como un insulto. Los demócratas son aquellos que, aunque no estén de acuerdo contigo, defenderán tu derecho a expresar tu opinión, sea la que sea.
Lamentablemente no es el caso de los conservadores. Si no compartes sus opiniones intentarán hacerte callar. Es lo que ellos digan o nada y hemos tenido bastantes muestras a lo largo de la historia.
Un demócrata puede que no respete tus opiniones, pero siempre te respetará como persona.
No entiendo por qué estás decepcionada porque la mayoría de los miembros de este foro discrepen de tí, es un sano ejercicio de democracia llevarse la contraria.

[Barbara Alonso Novellino]

I don't understand why you feel disappointed because most people on this forum disagree with you, it's a healthy exercise of democracy to disagree.

I am not the least bit disappointed that people on this forum don't agree with me. I knew from the start that this would be true. If you got that impression from me...then its the wrong one.

Its just the way some members go about their disagreement. If you read back I am sure you will see what I mean.

Enough said on the subject.

BAN

[Manny]

I completely agree with you Barbara. I stopped entering the forum because of the same reasons and I'm sure many others did as well. And it's not like Terechu says that "most disagree with us". I felt insulted or offended many times but it seems that a leftist democrat is better than a conservative democrat. I also believe that everyone has the right to express their opinions but without getting to the point of ganging up on one person because they don't agree with whatever. Hang in there Barbara "The Silent Majority Is With You".
Manny

[Barbara Alonso Novellino]

Hi Manny,

Thank you so much for your post...there were times when I thought I was all alone out there...and yes, they have a habit of ganging up.

Abrazios

Barbara

[Art]

I was wondering where Manny was! Welcome back, Manny.

It's unfortunate that we have few voices on the Right. It's pretty clear that the majority of our active members are progressives. Among my own cousins, at least the ones I know fairly well, there are a few very conservative people and more progressives. That makes sense, because the majority of our grandparents were on the Left, too. I'm pretty sure that most of them were laborers and unionists or very sympathetic to them.

I can understand why you (Barbara and Manny) would feel ganged up on. The numbers are uneven.

I assure you that we are all as emotionally-involved as you are. Although I try not to respond emotionally, that doesn't mean that I don't find some comments very irritating.

The key to learning anything in a discussion like this is to try to stick with ideas, facts, possibilities, and theories rather than personalities and feelings.

The problem, as I see it, is that reading a viewpoint that challenges our own is threatening--for all of us. That isn't the same, though, as someone insulting us. It's not an insult when someone disagrees with us.

It is a compliment when someone takes our words seriously and responds to us directly. I'd much prefer that to being ignored.

This is probably a good time to remind everyone of the guidelines:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579

I do have a question about one of the interpretations of these guidelines, which says that it's okay to insult a public figure who is not a member of the forum. It seems to me that insults of any sort do not promote rational discussion. I'll bring this up in a new thread:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtop ... =6023#6023
(So please don't discuss it in this present thread.)


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Me preguntaba, "¿Dónde era Manny?" Bienvenida otra vez, Manny.

Es desafortunado que tenemos pocas voces de la Derecha. Es bastante claro que la mayoría de nuestros miembros activos son progresistas. Entre mis propios primos, al menos estos que conozco bastante bien, hay unas personas muy conservadoras y más progresistas. Esto tiene sentido, porque la mayoría de nuestros abuelos estaban a la Izquierda, también. Estoy bastante seguro que la mayor parte de ellos eran trabajadores y unionistas o muy comprensivos a ellos.

Puedo entender por qué vosotros (Barbara y Manny) sentiríais que todos se unió contra vosotros. Los números son desiguales.

Os aseguro que somos todo tan emocionalmente absortos como vosotros sois. Aunque trate de no responder emocionalmente, esto no significa que no encuentre algunos comentarios muy irritantes.

El factor clave en aprender algo de una discusión como esto es tratar de seguir con ideas, hechos, posibilidades, y teorías más bien que personalidades y sentimientos.

El problema, como lo veo, es que leer un punto de vista que desafía nuestro propio nos amenaza - para todos nosotros. No es el mismo, sin embargo que ser insultado por alguien. No es un insulto cuando alguien discrepa con nosotros.

Es un cumplido cuando alguien considera nuestras palabras en serio y nos responde directamente. Preferiría mucho esto a que nadie haga caso.

Es probablemente un buen tiempo recordar de las pautas:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=579

Realmente tengo una pregunta sobre una de las interpretaciones de estas pautas, que dice que se puede insultar una figura pública que no es un miembro del foro. Me parece que los insultos de cualquier clase no promueven la discusión racional. Lo plantearé en un nuevo hilo:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtop ... =6023#6023
(Entonces, por favor no hable de ello aquí en este hilo.)

[Ken Menendez]

Well, I didn't want to respond to this; however, I decided to weigh in on the comments under this posting.

I am on the Right, not far right, but a moderate Republican. I gave up the Democratic party with LBJ (a result of the Vietnam War and how he fought it, as a Vietnam era vet) and it became finalized with Jimmy Carter (mis-managed, in my opinion, the Iranian hostage crisis, which to this day we are still engaging). In looking back it started with John Kennedy and the mis-management of the Cuban invasion and the beginning of the U.S. intervention into Vietnam after the French defeat. I voted for Kennedy and Johnson. I now consider that a mistake when I look back on history and where it has taken us.

When the Forum lost its direction from a heritage and cultural blog into a political debating forum I also lost interest. This is my first sign-in in months. The Forum has nothing to offer if it continues to be a political stage for Art, Xose and others on the left to espouse their views on others in hopes of engaging in an on-going debate for the "hell of it" or attempt to influence others to their thinking, and at the same time giving our European friends a mis-reading on the temper of our country (i.e., Art's comments in another post that there is a movement afoot to impeach Bush and Cheaney. This comment is without substance).

I know Ron from our Spelter days. Spelter, when I lived there, was a heavily Democratic town by voter registeration, and my parents were registered Democrats, as were Ron's. We both were probably influenced by our parents and the area's culture. Given the opportunity to leave the area (Spelter as well as West Virginia) and to work and live elsewhere my political beliefs shifted. My two grown, college educated, children are undergoing the same changes from liberal Democrat in college to moderate Republicans as they learn to earn wages and pay bills. No free hands out exist for them.

Having said all of this, I propose that the Forum shut down it's Political sections and revert back to a web site for purposes of learning each other's culture and to find missing relatives and such. If we do not shut this section down or temper it words, the Forum stands to lose, in my opinion, the vast majority of its followers and readers, leaving the site to Art, Xose, Terecu, Ron and a hand full of like believers to post to each other to share a singular view for self gratification.

I guess for the continuation of the Forum as a bridge to our Spanish cousins and those of us with the Spanish heritage, it is my belief the Forum needs to shift itself away from political commentary from less than 2% of the registered members (I assume there are 600) who keep up the dialogue for fun and games. The less than 2% I believe represent, Art, Xose, Ron, Terechu, Barbara, Manny, Bob, Elil, and myself since I answered this posting.

PS: I still support Bush and believe he is doing a great job. I support the effort in Iraq, as I believe it will help secure our long term future against terrorism. The battle against terrorism will last years if not decades, so have a stomach for it. In Spain they have terrorist in the Basque region and that has been going on for years, and it has branched out into the other provinces of Spain. Do our Spanish cousins have the stomach to confront it, or just seek accomodation and hope that all will go away. Muslin growth in Spain, as well as in France, is another issue, so look out for the extremist in that religion and your future fight.

Otherwise, have a nice day!

[Eli]

Hi everybody,

I understand the views of Barbara, Many and Ken, however I disagree. The boards are clearly labeled “Political” “General” “Jokes” “Recipes” etc. if conversations (and I call it that because so far that’s what I’ve seen, as supposed to debates) of a political nature are not what we enjoy, then it behooves us to not browse those boards. There must be at least 20 other boards that you can browse or where you can start new threads.

Instead of attempting to direct what others enjoy, do what you enjoy and others will join you.

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Hola todos,

Entiendo el punto de visat de Barbara, Many y Ken, sin embargo no estoy de acuerdo. Las listas estan nombradas claramente “Politica” “En General” “Chistes” “Recetas” ect. si las conversaciones (y las llamo conversaciones porque eso es lo que he visto hasta ahora, en lugar de debates) politicas no son algo que te agrada, entonces es tu responsabilidad el mantenerte alejado de esas listas. Deben haber por lo menos unas 20 otras listas donde puedes leer y comenzar nuevos telares.

En vez de tratar de controlar lo que los demas gozan, haz lo que tu gozas y otros se uniran.

[Art]

Welcome back, Ken! We've missed your pithy comments on political topics. I'm glad that Barbara was successful in getting you and Manny to respond.

We have warned members that the political threads are "hot" because it is easy to be irritated by them. They're "equal-opportunity" irritants: All three of you who have complained about this thread--Ken, Barbara, and Manny--have in the past irritated your fair share of liberals!

Of course, I didn't start this topic on Bush's performance; this is Berodia's soapbox, which is great. The soapbox is available to anyone who wants to start a topic or contribute to one.

What interests me most about Berodia's topic is ancillary. It has revealed an amazing difference in our attitudes on cursewords. So I've learned something useful about the Asturian and American cultures. And it also gave me a chance to learn about the agenda of the Religious Right. So personally I see this as a profitable discussion. I hope others have gained something of value, too, something besides heartburn!

The irony is that this political discussion really did draw you back in.

By the way, I would love to see further discussion of the topic you raised about Islamic fundamentalism and the future of Spain. If you're up to it, why not start a new thread on that? You may be right that it could become a huge problem.

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¡Bienvenida otra vez, Ken! Hemos fallado sus comentas expresivos sobre temas políticos. Me alegro que Barbara tuvo exito en pedir que tú y Manny respondáis.

Hemos advertido a los miembros que los hilos políticos están "calientes" porque es fácil ser irritado por ellos. Son irritantes de forma de "igualdad de oportunidades": ¡Todo los tres que se habéis quejado de este hilo - Ken, Barbara, y Manny - habéis irritado en el pasado bastantes liberales!

Desde luego, no comencé este tema sobre el rendimiento de Bush; esto es el "cajón de jabón" [en inglés es un cajón de madera que sirve de tarima a un orador callejero] iniciado por Berodia, lo que es cojonudo [¡mira! ¡aprendió algo!]. Esta tribuna está disponible a cualquier personna quien quiere comenzar un tema o contribuir a un hilol que.

Lo que me interesa más sobre el tema de Berodia es auxiliar. Su hilo ha revelado una diferencia asombrosa en nuestras actitudes sobre tacos y palabrotas. Entonces he aprendido algo útil sobre las culturas asturiana y americana. Y esto también me dio una oportunidad aprender de la agenda de la Derecha Religiosa. Por eso, personalmente veo este hilo como una discusión provechosa. Y espero que otros hayan ganado algo de valor, también, ¡algo además del ardor de estómago!

La ironía es que esta discusión política realmente te involucró al foro.

A propósito, gustaría ver más discusión del tema que formulaste sobre el fundamentalismo Islámico y el futuro de España. ¿Si estás dispuesto, por qué no comienzas un nuevo hilo sobre esto? Es posible que tengas razón en decir que puede hacerse problemático.

[Art]

...giving our European friends a mis-reading on the temper of our country (i.e., Art's comments in another post that there is a movement afoot to impeach Bush and Cheaney. This comment is without substance).

I have posted substantiation of this reality here:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtop ... =6049#6049

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... [trans. Art] dando a nuestros amigos europeos una interpretación incorrecta sobre el carácter de nuestro país (p. ej., los comentarios de Art en otro poste diciendo que hay un movimiento que se está tramando para acusar a Bush y Cheaney. Este comentario es sin fundamento).

He puesto la justificación de esta realidad aquí:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtop ... =6049#6049

[Suronda]

I want to emphasis a point made in Ken's comment above about the relationship of history to a fuller, deeper understanding of individual opinions and interpretations of current events. Without understanding where we came from, we really can't understand our beliefs. It is good, in my opion, to track this change over time as best we can.

Perhaps this next point is where I differ with Ken. I think that the political discussion should remain part of Asturianus.org. In order to understand our history, it helps to have a starting point in the present. The present provides lots of opportunities for questioning the past.

Political beliefs grow out of and shape our cultures. You really can't separate the two. I've been wondering: Why are Spaniards, at least in my opinion, much more politically involved than Americans? Why, does it seem, that Americans equate their political power so narrowly with the vote? Does it have any meaning to say "I'm a Republican?" or "I"m a Democrat?" Why do Americans shy away from difficult political discussions about the issues? Why is it so uncomfortable? I include myself in the "we" and if you read carefully, you'll see that I have posted little (if at all) under the political thread.

The discussion - when it has been a discussion and not simply a bi-partisan debate - has enriched my undestanding of the issues, and of those positions that I disagree with. In fact, it has helped me to question and better define my own beliefs. I welcome the interaction, not just for the sake of debate, but for truly enriching my understanding of politics on a larger scale. There is a fair amount of criticism of Bush in the U.S. (witness his falling approval ratings) at the same time there seems to be a great deal of support (witness the lack of large scale protest and the President's continued ability to get legislation through). We're truly divided in this nation, and I think the debate further supports that point. The discussion isn't something to be shut down, but is instead an opportunity for us to join together to move this county in a direction that is best for all citizens.

Is it too much to ask that this political thread really serve as a place that inspires genuine self-reflection adn analyis of the issues? I propose that we move away from partisan discussion (what a waste for everyone) and really examine the issues. Perhaps I'm just not jaded enough?!

[Anastasia]

Suronda, usted parece asturiana en la foto de su avatar!

[Bob]

I think a discussion of politics, whether American or Asturian, is healthy. I don't think that criticism by others of a politician I support is a criticism of me or an attack on me. I have no political heros. Democrats? Republicans? Neither party has a consistent record of acting my my best interest or that of my friends and family. As Shakepeare put it, "a plague on botheir houses."

One of my best friends, who died about 12 years ago, held rather extreme political opinions that were the exact opposite of mine. He and his wife and Evelyn and I enjoyed arguing with one another, even to the point of tweaks and insults. Did we sometimes get angry? Of course. But we could always back up our opinions with facts, although we may not have agreed on which facts were most important. Nothing was ever clearly black or white, but many shades of grey. Sadly, I think open and honest dialogue has been lost in the EEUU today, but that doesn't mean that we should not try to reestablish it. The evening always ended with abrazos and making plans for our next get-together.

Over the years, I managed to influence his views, as he did mine. Once we stop exchanging views and listening to one another, we are in deep trouble.

I am never insulted when someone offers a strongly worded negative opinion of a viewpoint or politician that I support. While I have no real political heroes, I can find something to admire in some (certainly not all) politicians on both sides of the aisle. I'll cite senators John McCain and Teddy Kennedy as two of them. Both have at various times espoused positions that I support. I can also cite both Democratic and Republican senators for whom I have absolutely no respect.

[Manuel A Gonzalez]

I just finished reading all the posts in this section and I am kind of taken aback by all the complaints. If the thread is clearly marked as a political discussion, if you are easily offended by political discussions; treat it like a TV set and turn the channel!!!

I actually read the posts on this forum regularly and it sort of reminds me of my Asturian upbringing and the hours of discussions my parents would have with other asturianos about politics, the economy, the US, Spain and the likes. When you visit Spain, Spaniards continually discuss politics with fervor....it would be very disturbing to take it out of the forum.....it is a real part of our Asturian heritage.

The US is becoming a militant Christian Right country that wants to censor everyone who is not Chrisitian (the evangelical type ONLY), heterosexual, and who is for womens' reproductive rights.

I am continually amazed how every election, every political debate is centered around abortion and gay marriage. When will we discuss the growing rate of poverty in the country, the overall shaky economy, the poorly funded schools in the US and all the other issues that really matter.

I am not only an Asturiano but a Gay Asturiano with a Jewish lifepartner. My everyday reality is very different from the conservative, Right wing whiners that are complaining about posting political discussions. I do not go into a tyraid everytime I see something in the forum that offends me.

My parent left Spain because they could not tolerate Franco's regime and the lack of basic human rights. The came to the US so that we could discuss openly and honestly our feelings about politics and religion and the like.

I am getting so disgusted with the US and particularly the right wing conservatives that I have had the notion that its time to immigrate!!!!

[pepe buylla]

Barbara, December 25th is not Christ's birthday. Nobody knows the day that Christ was born...not even the pope. The 25th was an old Roman holiday. I'm an Athiest, and even I know that...