2004 election in the US

Ken Menendez · Post by **Ken Menendez** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 12:24 pm

From my readings, Franco stayed in power until his death in 1975, with Juan Carlos, hand picked, replacing him as King opening up a new era of democracy for Spain. Almost lost freedom when some military officers shot up parliament and attempted to overthrow the government and reestablish Facism. Juan Carlos came to the rescue preserving the then fragile democracy. I do not remember the year.

Ours friends in Asturias probably have a better understanding of the events than me. But this is how I remember it

Ken Menendez · Post by **Ken Menendez** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 1:19 pm

Mouguias,

thank you for your post. Mouguias, I do not understand why the US, UK and others stood idly by while Francisco Franco Bahamonde seized power and the bloody Spanish Civic War. The USA, I guess coming out of a Great Depression, thinking it fought the "great and last" war, WWI, settled into a period of isolationism and became like an ostrich, burying our head in the sand. Individual Americans did go to Spain to fight, however. The Spanish Civic War was maybe too complex to pick sides, Fascist, Communist, Nazi, Republicans, and so on. I've tried to read books on the War by Hemmingway and others and I get very confused. Can't find the good guys versus the bad guys. Very complex.

Along with American isolationism was the worry over Nazi Germany and its advances across Europe, and what to do. Varies groups in the US, like the America First Committee and others fostered isolationism and some were communist or Nazi leaning and that hampered Franklin Roosevelt in rallying the American people to get involved in Europe. Until the events of December 7, 1941, the United States was very divided on what to do with Japan and its killings in China and other parts of Asia, Nazi Germany and its killings in Europe and advances into Russia, fascism in Italy, and then there's Spain. Franco was smart in not militarily siding up with Hitler when the United States entered the war, or else he could have ended up like the other fascist, Benito Mussolini of Italy. And Spain after 1943 (the year the Italians hung Mussolini) or there abouts could have been fighting amongst themselves again (another civic war) or settled in for some form of government until WWII was over. Now that is pure speculation, of course.

I am sure I had relatives in Asturias or elsewhere in Spain who fought or died in the civic war. I don't know as my family never discussed events in Spain that I can remember. My paternal grandparents and maternal grandfather are from the Aviles area, and came to the USA in the early 1900's leaving behind brothers, sisters, uncles, aunts, cousins and so on on the Menendez, Alvarez, Gonzalez, Garcia, Vega and Inclan side of my family.

I was just reading a passage on Franco that mentions that during WWII when Franco had an interview with Hitler in Hendaya, Oct. 23, 1940, he, Franco, did the least possible concessions in spite that he believed in the Nazi victory. He avoided, the article states, the commitment of entering the war on the side of Hitler with some evasive conditions like territorial vindication and the state of Spain after the civic war. After the defeat of fascism Franco had to face international isolation which although was not very strong made difficult the diplomatic and economic actions. The new circumstances or the cold war allow Franco to sign in 1953 the Alliance Treat with the USA and a Concordat with the Holy See. Two years later the UN recognized the Franco regime and in 1956 Franco had to accept the independence of Morocco. Just a bit of history I found interesting.

I did have a laugh in that Spaniards have learned the nickname for Bush as Dubya. The man is a lot smarter than folks give him credit. He is, as they say, "sly as a fox". I don't consider a negative comment about Bush as an affront to the American people. However, I do consider it an affront to me and the American people when the negative comments do border line on slander and based upon unsubstantiated rumors. If you do not like Bush as the result of the Iraq war or American ecomonic policies or other policies, than that is okay, but to call him a killer of women and children, a terrorist or to label him for actions that can not be substantiated then, yes, I will be very offended as will many other. To keep the record straight, you did NOT in your post call Bush names or slander him. Others have.

Barbara Alonso Novellino · Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:04 pm

When I was growing up something that always made my Dad very angry was the name Franco...it is a subject that he never discussed.

I remember being told...My Grandfather Jose Garcia returned to Spain after coming here to the USA with his wife and children. They settled in Grasselli, West Virginia and he worked in the Zinc Works there. He was bound and determined to save money to buy a farm and go back to Spain. He did this...I am not sure the year but it had to be in the late 20's. Well, he did buy his farm. As the story goes...during the Spanish Civil War he was arrested and sentenced to death for I believe, selling cattle to the opposition, something that he denied. He was taken to prison where he waited for his sentencing...I think it was by hanging. We were very fortunate to have a member of our family in the Foreign Service in England and he was able to get him released. If I'm not mistaken when my Grandfather was in this Country he became an American Citizen, which probably gave my Uncle leverage.

I too get very angry when people in these postings have called President Bush all kinds of names. Again I will say...I do not at all think that Senator Kerry would make a good President...he flip flops too much on most of the issues. He has changed his position many times. He has alligned himself with the likes of Senator Kennedy...give me a break...However, you will see from ALL my postings I have never slandered him or said some of the awful things you have said about President Bush. So, Ladies and Gentlemen, cut it out!

By the way...for your information Bill O'Reilly on Fox News will be interviewing President Bush today, tomorrow and Wednesday.

Post by **Art** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:50 pm

Barbara, could you list a couple of examples of what bothers you about what people have said about Bush?

---------------

Barbara, por favor danos algunos ejemplos de lo que te molesta cuando se dice de Bush.

Xose · Post by **Xose** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:02 pm

Barbara, I did not know that history behind my great-great-grandfather. Interesting. I'd like to know more about it....

Now, back to politics:

Kerry's alleged "flip-flops" can't hold a candle to the Flip-flopper in Chief! There are too many to post here, but here's a few that seem particualrly egregious:

Bush claims he can win the war on terror: "One of the interesting things people ask me, now that we're asking questions, is, can you ever win the war on terror? Of course, you can." [President Bush, 4/13/04]

…Bush says war on terror is unwinnable: "I don't think you can win [the war on terror]." [President Bush, 8/30/04]

…Bush says he will win the war on terror: "Make no mistake about it, we are winning and we will win [the war on terror]." [President Bush, 8/31/04]

Bush opposes restrictions on 527s: "I also have reservations about the constitutionality of the broad ban on issue advertising [in McCain Feingold], which restrains the speech of a wide variety of groups on issues of public import." [President Bush, 3/27/02]

…Bush says 527s bad for system: "I don't think we ought to have 527s. I can't be more plain about it…I think they're bad for the system. That's why I signed the bill, McCain-Feingold." [President Bush, 8/23/04]

BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road." [Gov. George W. Bush, 10/3/00]

...BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people." [President Bush, 3/6/03]

There are plenty more where those came from at http://www.americanprogressaction.org/s ... H&b=118263

Ken Menendez · Post by **Ken Menendez** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 4:58 pm

To be fair and balanced the following are just a few websites that one can use to review the numerous flip-flops of John Kerry.

www.georgebush.com/KerryFlipFlops/

www.flipflopper.com/Flipflops.asp

My favorite because it has an index to pick a subject and it is:

www.nojohnkerry.org/kerryhtml/flipflops.htm

If you so desire there are also some good websites to order John Kerry FlipFlop clothing.

Let me know if you are unable to open the web site as I tried to get the address correctly.

Xose · Post by **Xose** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:20 pm

Thanks for the links, Ken. There is no denying that Kerry has changed his viewpoint on many issues in his long, distinguished Senate career. In fact, there is nothing wrong with anyone changing their view based on changing situations.

The difference here is that Kerry is not running as the "resolute" "steadfast" candidate fighting the "flip-flopper." Again, it's the hypocracy of the Bush administration that amazes me (although it shouldn't by now).

Carlos · Post by **Carlos** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:45 pm

Ken, I was born November 22 1957, therefore I am 47 years old today, two years when Ike & Franco meet in Madrid, eighteen when Franco died, and 24 when the coup d'etat tentative was doing. As a member of an old republican family, at a very young age I became conscious on the political situation in Spain, and at 17 I fougth actively against Fascism and for Democracy, taking part in clandestine civic organisations (all of them, in fact).

Please don't forget that the death of Franco's date is a thing, and another very different the Democracy consolidation moment. Those intermediate years are the so called "Transition", with a lot of deaths in our streets, by the remanent fascist Police elements (the most) and also the organised ultra-right groups as Fuerza Nueva, Guerrilleros de Cristo Rey and others. A friend of mine, a student leader, a beautiful and pretty girl 20 years old called Yolanda González was kidnapped, tortured, raped and killed by a shot in the nape, and she was only one among a lot of people.

I in person was arrested by the Police to top of sub-machine gun together with other persons, at 6 a.m., in the industrial zone where I was working for then, in a scene similar to those of the coup d'état of Pinochet, for something so "dangerous" as to distribute pamphlets calling to the strike for her death and that of other workers and students. This in the year 1977.

After a holliday journey in France in 1984, accompanied by Fonsu Mielgo, today a well known member of the folk band "Llan de Cubel", we where asked for our Identity Card at the France-Spain custom, and to my surprise the Spanish policeman ask me if I was arrested in 1977! I don't have any penal antecedent, but at this date the Police were preserving yet the policial dossiers relative to the opponents of Franco, something absolutelly illegal!

I believe that I can speak with sufficient knowledge what was the Franco's regime! For Yolanda, for different so many people, I cannot, I don't want to forget all the hangmen who stayed without punishment.

Ken Menendez · Post by **Ken Menendez** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 5:56 pm

Xose, do you wear glasses?

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I was kind of wondering if you do and if they are rose colored for Kerry. Anyway, I guess when you were in the store picking out your Kerry rose colored glasses you voted for the green lens before you voted against the green lens. But chose instead the Kerry rose.

Its funny how you and I can read the same articles, hear the same newscast and walk away with two opinions on what we read or heard. Problem is you have made up your mind and I have made up my mind, so checkmate. And I bet 99% of the American public that will vote have made up their minds, and not much in this Forum, talk shows, etc., will be making any impact on changing those positions.

So we can trade jabs all today long for the entertainment of our Asturian friends and consider this just entertainment. That's showbiz.

Ken Menendez · Post by **Ken Menendez** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:08 pm

Carlos,

Your last post has left me speechless. I am so sorry and as Art has said, we do not get complete coverage in this country of happenings in Spain, or elsewhere outside our borders. We don't even have a good view of news in Canada, our neighbor. Sometimes to sell newspapers and get listeners our news media will over cover some actor, singer or athletic as if they are important. Too bad for us.

Again, your views are greatly appreciated as they come from the heart and not from a hot head. It is hard to believe that in the mid-1980's the Spanish police would have a dossier on you for no criminal activity commited.

Thank you, Carlos, for this post.

Xose · Post by **Xose** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:37 pm

Huh? Ken, if I could understand your post I would respond.

Carlos, your story is incredibly moving. What is really scary here is that now, under the Bush regime's so-called Patriot Act, the U.S. government has secret dossiers on innocent people who have committed no crime. We're not to the level of executing people based on their politics, yet, thank god.

It's my hope that on election day, enough people will have the good sense to vote our non-elected "leader" out of office and get back on the track to true freedom, a return to civil rights as outlined in the Constitution, and real, effective homeland security.

Ken Menendez · Post by **Ken Menendez** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 6:49 pm

Xose, sorry you didn't understand my last post directed to you. Basically, what I said is you are living in a rose colored world based upon a socialist senator who is running for president to come to your rescue. However, with his flip flops none of us know which direction he will go in if he becomes president. Betting odds here (Kansas City) are Kerry, if elected, will reverse his anti-war stance and will call up more troops and continue the Iraq war in hopes that he can prove that he is a warrior not a pacifist. Americans love war hero's. Not too many pacifist have gotten elected to national office. They just hang around street corners bitching.

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 7:12 pm

Our members may wish to read their FBI dossiers. Some have them and some don't, I'm sure. In any event, anyone can request a copy of his or her file at http://foia.fbi.gov/. If you have a file, no matter what your politics, the contents may make you yawn or they may astound you. There's no way to tell until you look.

Bob Martinez

Xose · Post by **Xose** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 8:51 pm

Socialist?!?!

Ha ha! That's either a great joke or you have absolutely no idea what socialism is.

Members of the PSOE, IU, or PDC on the board may be able to enlighten you on real socialism, Ken....

Bob, the standing orders of the Bush and Ashcroft regime are to reject any and all FOIA requests as a matter of course. Under previous administrations, you would be able to get information that we all have a right to know. Now it's nearly impossible....

Secrecy is a poison that slowly kills freedom....

Ken Menendez · Post by **Ken Menendez** » Mon Sep 27, 2004 10:18 pm

Bob, thanks for the FBI info. I e-mailed and faxed my FOIA request this evening.

I will let the Forum know of how long it takes, if I am refused, and what information may be contained in any file on me.

This is a good exercise.

If I do not get a reply, I will then write my congressman, Dennis Moore, to assist me.