Politics of "Merry Christmas" & "Happy Ho

[Bob]

I not only like to be wished a Merry Christmas, but a Happy Chanukah as well (or a happy whatever other religious holiday my friends may celebrate).

This year, the first day of Chanukah happened to coincide with Christmas. We spent most of the day with our daughters, their husbands, our son, and our two granddaughters. There was a Christmas tree and the usual presents, advent calendar, etc., but also a menorah and a brief candle lighting ceremony. One granddaughter lit the "helper" candle, and the other lit the first Chanukah candle from it.

Neither Evelyn nor I are very religious, nor are our kids or our granddaughter's other grandparents. Their other grandfather, however, is of Russian Jewish origin. My background (and that of their other grandmother) is Catholic. Evelyn's is Episcopalian. None of what we did was overtly religious, but it all celebrated the richness of the many cultural and religious heritages and traditions that reside in the girls. It was fun for everyone, the girls enjoyed it all, and they (and future generations) are richer and - hopefully - more tolerant and respectful of others for having been exposed to it.

By the way, I never doubted that you support the idea if good health care for everyone.

[Barbara Alonso Novellino]

It is important for everyone to celebrate in the manner they want...whether it be Christmas, Chanukah or any other observation.

Bob, it sounds like you had a wonderful Christmas and Chanukah. Its wonderful that your grandaughters are exposed to both.

I spent Christmas Eve with my son, daughter and the light of our lives my Grandaugher and other family members. We had a typical Christmas Eve with food, wine, gifts and Love. Our home is completely transformed into Chrismas both inside and outside. My husband and I work very hard...but its all worth it.

After eveyone left my husband Tony and I attended Midnight Mass. It was beautiful and inspirational. The Church was in darkness except for candles and the music and singing was breathtaking. I was raised Catholic although my Mother and Father were non practicing Catholics for whatever reason.

So you see...Merry Christmas is my choice. As I said before...Christmas is Christ's Birthday and nothing can change that fact...

Barbara

[Art]

Bob, yes, I knew you'd know that I support good health care for everyone. What I should have said was that I don't think that the linkage between support for good health care and the use of general holiday greetings is very strong.

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Bob, sí, ya sabía que sabría que apoyo la asistencia médica buena para cada persona. Lo que yo debería haber dicho era que creo que la relación entre el apoyo para la asistencia médica buena y el uso de saludos generales para navidad no sea muy fuerte.

[Art]

I realize that I'm unlikely to change anyone's mind. What I'd like to do is to add one more thought on generalized holiday greetings, to try to explain my thinking more clearly.

To me, it's ironic that those who don't celebrate Christmas might be more concerned about the purity of the faith than some Christians are.

Ah...what's that?

I care about the meaning of the words I use. Christmas is a Christian holiday. As Barbara has said it's clearly all about Jesus. I have always had a lot of respect for the man, Jesus, but I don't celebrate that holiday.

It'd be inauthentic if I were to use the words "Merry Christmas". Of course, like anyone, I like to give my greetings for the variety of winter holidays that occur around the time of the solstice.

If I were to use the words "Merry Christmas", I'd be devaluing them, using them as code for the generic season.

If I were an orthodox (little "o") Christian, I'd be pressing to have the word "Christmas" taken out of the vocabulary of the business world so that the holiday of Christmas could return to being a meaningful religious holiday rather than a buying binge.

But that's not what's going on here. What we're seeing is simply a reflection of the desire we all have that everyone be just like us. We all do this.

We have just two options if we want to approach some semblance of unity: repression or tolerance.

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[Espero que la tradución baste. Dime si no.]

Comprendo que sea improbablemente cambiar la mente de alguien. Lo que me gustaría es añadir uno más pensamiento sobre saludos generalizados de Navidad, tratar de explicar mi pensamiento más claramente.

A mí, es irónico que los que no celebran la Navidad podrían estar más preocupados sobre la pureza de la fe que algunos cristianos.

¿¡Ah ... qué es esto?!

Me preocupo por la significación de las palabras que uso. "Christmas" [La Navidad] es una fieata cristiana. Como Barbara ha dicho es claramente completamente sobre Jesús. Yo siempre he tenido mucho respeto para el hombre, Jesús, pero no celebro esta fiesta.

Sería inauténtico si yo usara las palabras "Merry Christmas" [Feliz Navidad]. Desde luego, como todos, me gusta dar mis saludos para la variedad de las fiestas de invierno que ocurren alrededor del tiempo del solsticio.

Si yo usara las palabras "Merry Christmas" [Feliz Navidad], los devaluaría, usándolos como el código para la estación genérica.

Si yo fuera un cristiano ortodoxo ("o" minúscula), presionaría de tener la palabra "Christmas" sacado del vocabulario del mundo de los negocios de modo que las fiestas de Navidad pudieran volver a ser fiestas significativas y religiosas más bien que un frenesí por comprar.

Pero esto no es lo que ocurre aquí [en este tiempo en los EE.UU]. Lo que estamos viendo es simplemente una reflexión del deseo que tenemos: que cada persona sea exactamente como nosotros. Todos hacemos esto.

Tenemos solamente dos opciones si queremos acercarnos a alguna semejanza de unidad: la represión o la tolerancia.

[Eli]

Interesting.... to me is the exact opposite Smile I think it is high time we take christ out of Chritmas so that people of all denominations be them Muslim, Jewish, atheist or what have you get together and enjoy this wonderful festivity. I see it more and more really, used to got together with Jewish friends and a Muslim even a co-worker, think she was Buddhist, we exchanged gifts and enjoy dinner... no religious inflection of any kind to our gatherings.

Almost positive that’s the way it will evolve.

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Interesante.... para mi es exactamente lo opuesto Smile Me parece que es hora de sacar la religion de la navidad, para que personas de todas las religiones la puedan gozar; ya sean Judios, Musulmanes, ateos o cualquier otra cosa. Es algo que veo cada dia mas a menudo, solia reunirme con amigos Judios y un Musulman incluso habia una mujer empleada en la misma compañia que yo en esa epoca, creo que era Budista. Intercambiabamos regalos y gozabamos de la cena, sin tonos religiosos de tipo alguno.

Estoy casi seguro de que va a evolucionar de esa manera.


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Geez... making me chase the thread throughout the forum... posted it at the same time you were deleting it ... I was like "I know there was a thread here..."

[Art]

Oops! Glad you found it, Elí.

You may be right about the secularization of the holiday being unstoppable. I doubt that everyone will think that's positive!

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¡Uy! Me alegra que lo encuentres, Elí.

Quizás tengas razón que la fiesta sea más y más secular y que sea un proceso imparible. ¡Dudo que todos pensen que sea positivo!

[Barbara Alonso Novellino]

Eli,

Just how do you think we can take Christ out of Christmas...I have said it so many times....Christmas is Christ's Birthday...the celebration of Our Saviors Birth...for those of us who chose to believe that.

If its your desire, and that of your friends, to have a nice meal and exchange gifts, then do so, but don't try and change our celebration. It is a religious Holy Day.

I really fail to understand why there is such a drive to change the greeting Merry Christmas...and now to take Christ out of Christmas. I have lived a long time, probably longer than most of you here in the Forum. I NEVER remember there being such a frenzy about Christmas. It was a day set aside for us to celebrate the birth of Christ. Those who believe celebrated it and those who didn't didn't. No one tried to change the greeting or anything else.

Barbara Alonso Novellino

[Bob]

As I see it, there is a triplet "celebration" of Christmas in this country (EEUU). Some celebrate primarily the religious aspects (but it´s hard to escape the secular ones, at least in the EEUU), some celebrate the secular ones, and some do neither. Some of us celebrate the holidays of other religions as well, or at least acknowledge them to our friends of those religions, and I think we are all richer for the experience. Most of my Jewish and Muslim friends and co-workers wish me "Merry Christmas" every year.

Quite honestly, I don't remember any attempt by others to change my celebration of Christmas. Perhaps the experience of others has been different. The "political correctness" of language, however, is quite another matter, but I don't care what others say as long as they respect what I say (i.e., Merry Christmas). If someone wishes me Merry Christmas, I'm happy. If someone wishes me Happy Chanukah, I'm happy. If some wishes me Happy Holidays, I'm happy. If someone ignores the season but remains a good friend, I'm also happy. Whether all this is god or bad, I cannot say, but it does provide a certain measure of comfort and joy.

I sometimes wonder how much of the current global religious animosity would never have developed had we all wished one another a merry, happy, joyous, whatever...all along.

In any event, my best wishes to one and all for a Happy New Year, whenever the new year may begin in their tradition.

Bob

[Eli]

Hi Barbara,

Exactly, I think Bob has the right attitude.

The thing about xmas is that well, like most things it is doom to succumb due to it’s own success. Let me give you an example (keeping in mind the distances of course), when Frigidaire introduced it’s line of refrigerators the product was so successful that eventually eclipsed all other brands, eventually people started to refer to the refrigerator as the frigidaire, in fact people even today go out and buy frigidaires made by say Maytag, and don’t know any better. When Google became the predominant search engine people started ‘googling’ this that or the other, today people ‘google’ in Yahoo for information. Generally speaking the same thing happens with xmas, it is everywhere, you can’t avoid it. It is on the radio, tv. stores, the Mall, from the White House to the bike path we have xmas in front of us, from the moment we wake up to the moment we go to bed. Whether you are a Christian or not you ‘live’ xmas. That being the case you can either join it and enjoy the celebrations or you can fight it but you can not ignore it. That is simply not possible. Being that fighting it is mostly useless people tend to eventually bend and accept it and eventually learn to enjoy it, whether at work or with friends they will somehow end up in a xmas celebration of some sort... so they might as well go along with it. As more and more people that don’t share the Christian beliefs xmas join in the celebrations, the festivity becomes less and less a religious one, at some point we are simply just kidding ourselves if we say xmas is all about Jesus, it has been decades since Jesus became a third player in the larger scope of things. Xmas is about commercial interests, social standing, and children’s dreams.

Because of that I say it is time we simply stop pretending it is a religious celebration, it hasn’t been one for decades. It hasn’t been one for us at least, if you want to see a religious Christmas celebration go to Bolivia, very little if any commercial influence, a tremendous religious one.

We can’t have it both ways, we can’t have it be by far the dominating influence for two months out of a year in the western world and at the same time claim that it is a Christian tradition, non Christians should just keep to themselves. They can’t, even if they wanted to, and why would they not join and enjoy after all it is a very nice holliday, as far as I know one of the best anywhere.

Although Hannukah can’t be commercialized and it is so small that even if you live next door to a synagogue you may never know that it is going on, it is a religious event (Hannukkah is not a celebration it is more like a remembrance). However, I’m certain it too in time will grow and become absorbed by the whole xmas celebration to form a single larger one. All of this of course can not happen while at the same time everything maintains all of the religious symbolisms attached to them. So, we might as well just join in the fun and chuck the old traditions and make room for the new

Elí

[Art]

Elí, your point about how success leads to being taken for granted may explain why some Christians are feeling under attack at the same time as they are the dominant force in American culture.

The inexorable nature of social change is that as good things become popular, they are changed into something the original adopters may not recognize and almost certainly won't like.

What would Jesus think about the religion that carries his name if he came back today? I think it'd be very difficult to convince him that modern Christianity had much to do with the message he proclaimed 2000 years ago. Even Paul, who had much more influence in the early institutionalization of Christianity, would probably be very disappointed.

I think it's in the Greek Orthodox tradition that there is a line in the liturgy that says "The doors! The doors!" This is supposedly a remnant from early Christianity when it was dangerous to be openly Christian and they made sure the doors were locked before celebrating the eucharist. There aren't many places in the world where the doors have to be locked today. In fact, it's quite easy for a non-believer to take communion. With increased scale, maintaining "quality control" (or orthodoxy) is very difficult, if not impossible.

There's no way to stop the "progress" of movements like Christianity. And we probably wouldn't want to. That would be like wishing we could stop the change in our lives so that everything would always be the way things were when we were 20 or 30 or 60. If I'm honest, I can see that every period of my life has had its own pains and miseries. I'd rather deal with the change.

Of course, this desire to go back in time or stop time thrives. It's one reason why the evangelical non-denominational churches are growing in the US in recent decades. And it's why the Religious Right has been able to gain so much support in recent elections. Seeking refuge from painful change, they're refugees from postmodernity.

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Elí, tu punto que el éxito hace caer ser dado por sentado puede explicar por qué algunos Cristianos se sienten ser atacados al mismo tiempo que son la fuerza dominante en la cultura americana.

La naturaleza inexorable del cambio social es que cuando cosas buenas se hacen populares, cambian hasta ser algo que los adoptadores originales no pueden reconocer y casi seguramente no les gustará.

¿Qué pensaría Jesús de la religión que lleva su nombre si él volviera hoy? Pienso que sería muy difícil de convencerlo que el cristianismo moderno tenga mucho que ver con el mensaje quel proclamó hace 2000 años. Incluso Paul, que tenía mucho más influencia en la institucionalización de cristianismo temprano, probablemente estaría muy decepcionado.

Pienso que está en la tradición ortodoxa griega en que hay una línea en la liturgia que dice "¡Las puertas! ¡Las puertas!" Esto es supuestamente un remanente del cristianismo temprano cuando era peligroso ser abiertamente cristiano y ellos se aseguraron que las puertas fueron cerradas antes de celebrar la eucaristía. No hay muchos sitios en el mundo donde las puertas tienen que ser cerradas hoy en día. De hecho, es bastante fácil para uno que no es creyente recibir la comunión. Cuando la escala aumentada, mantener "el control de calidad" (o la ortodoxia) es muy difícil, o imposible.

No hay ningún modo de parar "el progreso" de movimientos como el cristianismo. Y probablemente no lo querríamos. Sería como desear que podemos parar el cambio en nuestras vidas, de modo que todo sería siempre como fuera cuando teníamos 20 o 30 o 60 años. Si soy honesto, puedo ver que cada época de mi vida ha tenido sus propios dolores y miserias. Yo preferiría tratar con el cambio.

Desde luego, prospera muchísmo este deseo de volver a un tiempo más temprano o de parar el tiempo. Esto es una razón qué las iglesias evangélicas y independientes crecen en los EE.UU. en las décadas recientes. Y es por eso que la Derecha Religiosa ha sido capaz de ganar tanto apoyo en las elecciones recientes. Buscando el refugio del cambio doloroso, ellos son refugiados de la postmodernidad.

[Art]

Barbara, one reason for the problem we're discussing is that there has been a celebration at the solstice for many millennia, long before Jesus' time. I think we celebrate at this time because we have to, because we humans are created in such a way that we respond to these darkest days.

It may be unfortunate that Christianity chose this time for one of its high holidays, but many have noted that it was an intentional choice. In the days when the Christian church was expanding into new regions in Europe, they often coopted traditional celebrations and traditional holy sites. This strategy worked in the beginning to help Christianity compete with traditional religions. But--like any strategy--it had unintended consequences.

People--whether they're Christian or not--still want to celebrate during this period of the shortest days of the year. So the problem is what do we call it? How can we talk about this period while respecting Christianity and the beliefs of others?

Obviously, we don't have agreement on the answer. It's not an easy question. Some like Elí (I think) say it's "Christmas", but it doesn't have to have anything to do with Jesus. I'd prefer to call it something else. Bob wants to experience it (I think) with a variety of names and rituals.

Tell me if I have misunderstood, but I hear you saying that everyone should call it "Christmas" and yet everyone should also recognize it as a Christian holiday. What about those who don't see this period as a Christian holiday but feel a need to celebrate at this time? What should they call it?

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Barbara, una razón que tenemos este problema es que había una celebración del solsticio para muchos milenarios, mucho antes del tiempo de Jesús. Pienso que nos festejamos o divertimos en este tiempo porque tenemos que hacerlo, porque somos creados de tal modo que respondemos a estos días más oscuros.

Quizás sea desafortunado que el cristianismo escogió este período para una de sus fiestas más altas, pero muchos han notado que era una elección intencional. En los días cuando la iglesia cristiana se ampliaba en nuevas regiones de Europa, a menudo asumían las celebraciones tradicionales y los sitios santos tradicionales. Esta estrategia funcionó al principio para que el cristianismo podía competir con religiones tradicionales. Pero--como cualquier estrategia--tenía consecuencias no planeadas.

La gente--si cristianos o no--todavía quiere divertirse durante este período de los días más cortos del año. Entonces el problema es así: ¿Qué lo llamamos? ¿Cómo podemos hablar de este período respetando el cristianismo y las creencias de otros?

Obviamente, no tenemos ningún acuerdo sobre la respuesta. No es una pregunta fácil. A los como Elí (pienso) les gustan llamarlo "Christmas" [la Navidad], pero no tiene que tener nada ver con Jesús. Yo preferiría llamarlo algo distinto. Bob quiere (pienso) disfrutar de una variedad de nombres y rituales.

Dígame si he entendido mal, pero te oigo diciendo que cada uno debería llamarlo "Christmas" [la Navidad] y aún cada uno también debería reconocerlo como una fiesta cristiana. ¿Qué quieres que hagan los quienes no entienden que sea una fiesta cristiana, pero sientan una necesidad de celebrar en este tiempo? ¿Qué deberían ellos llamarlo?

[Barbara Alonso Novellino]

"Obviously, we don't have agreement on the answer. It's not an easy question. Some like Elí (I think) say it's "Christmas", but it doesn't have to have anything to do with Jesus. I'd prefer to call it something else. Bob wants to experience it (I think) with a variety of names and rituals."

Question Art....what would you call December 25 if not Christmas? I would be very interested in your answer. Christians believe that the day celebrates the Birth of Christ. I think, if I am not mistaken, Bob was talking about Christmas and Chanuka and their celebrations.

"Tell me if I have misunderstood, but I hear you saying that everyone should call it "Christmas" and yet everyone should also recognize it as a Christian holiday. What about those who don't see this period as a Christian holiday but feel a need to celebrate at this time? What should they call it?"

And...NO you didn't misunderstand me...on the calendar December 25 is listed as Christmas...the Stock Market, Stores, Banks and so many other places of business are closed. What do they call it??? A Day Off, but they WHY the day off??? You don't have to believe to recognize it as a Christian Holiday. As far as having the need to celebrate at this time and what they should call it...THEY CAN CALL IT WHATEVER THEY WANT TO CALL IT....

You know Forum Members...they always say that the two subjects that should be avoided are Religion and Politics. I think that this is so true..we have had many a heated, and not so heated discussions, on both through the years. And you know what...no one has changed their minds...but, it has been interesting seeing different opinions even if I don't agree with most.

Have a Happy New Year everyone....

Barbara

[Eli]

funny, I thought this was an excellent thread. I have seen nothing but well behaved people expressing different points of view, in fact I was thinking this group as a whole deserves praise. However I refrained from doing so because praising people for behaving like people felt 'wrong'.

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I was reading the news and ran into this little article on just what it may someday be called. Can't say I agree with it though, because well Hanukkah is the remembrance of a war's outcome, think it is closer to our V day than to our xmas. It would be cool for it to become a small part of xmas something that portrays the lethal human nature, but not on the same level since after all xmas is a celebration of the Human spirit, once stripped of the mythological overtones it embodies the best of what we are. It may however just end up being "Chrismukka", after all the Germans are already using it, and apparently it is taking a foothold there. Once stablished it will simply be a matter of time for it to spread, whether I agree with it or not.

I hate it when people do stuff like that without consulting with me first....

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,214 ... 03,00.html

[Art]

I've been thinking about what Barbara wrote two posts above this one.

I've found this a helpful thread because it's helped me formulate my opinion about a difficult topic. As a result, my current stance is much more subtle than before because I see the complexities better.

One thing I like about this forum is that we can discuss topics about which we may have strong feelings and still trust each other enough to disagree. Well, usually ... I've only seen one threat of physical violence in the forum.

Still ... and here's a little confession ... it's worth noting that when someone responds to one of my posts, I often get this twitch of dread and a burning feeling. I can hear my doctor asking, "And where is this feeling?" I can't remember. Maybe its in my face or neck. Even a good friend's opposing view can make me feel that slow burn.

It's not just conservative views that irritate me initially. Eli's and Bob's ideas, for example, sometimes send me over the edge, too.

I say this to let Barbara know that it's not just her that experiences these negative reactions. I've heard others say things that makes it clear that they experience it, too. I think this is the way we were created: we're built to want people to agree with us and we react emotionally when others disagree with us.

Knowing this gives us the ability to know that what's happening to us and to remember that the feeling will soon pass and then we'll be just fine. And that allows us to get back to thinking instead of feeling. But, oh yeah, feel we do!

Is there an alternative? Would it be better to not talk about taboo topics? Nah. I'll put up with the burn. Not talking about them would just leave me more ignorant. Plus, I think if we can discuss difficult topics relatively amicably but still hold our differing views, that we gain a deeper friendship and understanding of ourselves and each other. And sometimes we even get a good chuckle, like with the last line of Eli's last message.

I do, however, usually wait before responding. I may even compose my response over several hours or mull it over until the next day.

Best wishes for the new year!

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He estado pensando lo que Barbara escribió dos postes encima de éste.

Para mi, este hilo es provechoso porque me ha ayudado a formular mi opinión sobre un tema difícil. Por consiguiente, mi postura corriente es mucho más sutil que antes porque veo mejor las complejidades.

Me gusta que el foro nos permita hablar de temas sobre los cuales podemos tener sentimientos fuertes y todavía confiar en el uno al otro bastante para que podemos discrepar. Bueno, por lo general ... sólo he visto una amenaza de violencia física en el foro.

Todavía ... pues, ahora una pequeña confesión ... vale la pena notar que cuando alguien responde a uno de mis mensajes, a menudo me pongo este tirón de temor y una sensación de quema. Puedo oír la pregunta de mi médico, "¿Y dónde lo sientes?" No puedo recordar. Tal vez esté en mi cara o cuello [culo, no]. Incluso la opinión contraria de un amigo bueno puede resultar en este sentido de quema lente.

No es solamente las opiniones conservadoras que me irritan al principio. Las ideas de Elí y Bob, por ejemplo, a veces me empujan a este borde, también.

Digo esto para que Barbara sepa que no es solamente ella que experimenta estas reacciones negativas. He oído a otros deciendo cosas que dejan en claro que otros lo experimentan, también. Pienso que esto es el modo en que estábamos creados: somos construidos para que queremos que la gente estuviera de acuerdo con nosotros y reaccionamos emocionalmente cuando los otros discrepan con nosotros.

Este saber nos da la capacidad de reconocer lo que nos pasa y de recordar que el sentimiento pasará pronto y luego seremos perfectamente bien. Y esto nos permite regresar al pensamiento en vez del sentimiento. ¡Pero, ah sí, sentimos primero!

¿Hay una alternativa? ¿Sería mejor no hablar de temas de tabú? No. Aguantaré el quema. No hablar de ellos solamente me dejaría más ignorante. Además, pienso que si podemos hablar de temas difíciles relativamente cordialmente, pero todavía sostenemos nuestras opiniones discrepantes, que ganamos una amistad más profunda y el entendimiento de nosotros y el uno al otro. Y a veces hasta conseguimos una risita, como con la última línea del último mensaje (arriba) de Elí.

Sin embargo, por lo general espero un rato antes del responder. Algunas veces compongo mi respuesta durante de varias horas o medito sobre ello hasta el día siguiente.

¡Que disfrutes del año nuevo!

[Barbara Alonso Novellino]

Still ... and here's a little confession ... it's worth noting that when someone responds to one of my posts, I often get this twitch of dread and a burning feeling. I can hear my doctor asking, "And where is this feeling?" I can't remember. Maybe its in my face or neck. Even a good friend's opposing view can make me feel that slow burn.

Art, I had to smile to myself when I read the above. When someone responds to my posts...I too get a burning feeling. I sometimes respond immediately, but you are right sometimes its better to digest what has been said, compose myself, and then respond.

When thinking about this forum I come to the conclusion, like you, that we shouldn't have a topic thats considered "taboo". It's important to get everyones point of view, respectfully of course. There is always someone who disagrees, but thats what makes the world go round.

It's funny that conservative views irrate you...well, liberal views irrate me too... I guess we will have to respectfully agree to disagree...but thats OK.

Best Wishes for the New Year...and more discussions.