Asturian-American Migration Forum

Dear Carlos:

I also use the Alta Vista translator. One way to check the translation is to copy the English translation it gives you and then put it into the translation box and ask it to translate it back into Spanish.

That should let you know if there is a problem with the translation. It does not always work though. I wrote my cousin and said my children love turkey (the bird). Meaning they love to eat turkey during our Thanksgiving holiday.

The computer gave me the word for the country Turkey. Since the country and the bird are spelled exactly the same in America, when I reversed the translation it appeared correct (that caused some confusion).

Another thing I do is get a translation from Alta Vista and then check the accuracy of the translation using another program like REVERSO (www.reverso.net)

Caray, Donna. I have tried to translate "zoquete" with Reverso, and the result that it gives is "block". I suppose that the English dictionnaries take an ancient meaning for the Spanish word, but today nobody knows nor uses this meaning, though possibly it's gathered in the Dictionary of the Royal Academy of the Spanish Language (DRALE).

Both the Dictionary and the Academy are capable of going so, but so slow, that mix words in disuse and archaisms with innovations that sometimes sound rather ridiculous.

For example, there are some words that are innovations taken from English. But there exist Academies of the Spanish Language in almost all the countries Hispanic speakers, who are in mutual contact to unify the language. The problem is that in Spain not always the same terms are adopted that in Latin America. For example, the "denim trousers, jeans" in Spain are called "unos pantalones vaqueros" or simply "unos vaqueros", but in Latin America the name is "jeans". The DRALE admeets both "vaqueros", and also "yins". A CD-Rom becames "un cederrón". As Asterix and Obelix would say:

They are crazy, these academicians!

Carlos:

Yes, Alta Vista and Reverso have their problems, but they are much better than what I could translate with a dictionary. If I tried to write Spanish without the computer translator I would probably translate something totally incorrect. I probably would insult my cousins in Spain or start an "International Incident" (Problems between countries).
Joke

"Zoquete" equals "moron"
As to the Letizia affair, I think this all is quite pathetical (Why do we all pay all that attention to her and her would-be-husband? She doesn`t care at all about us, let alone he). But as long as we concentrate on "The" wedding and Fernando Alonso, I guess we won`t have to think on the lousy situation of the country.
Up an independent Asturian Republic!

Mouguias, perdónanos por ser tan patéticos, pero no sé si en esta sección (Events - Acontecimientos) vienen a cuento proclamas independentistas. Pero de todos modos voy a entrar al trapo: ¿Cómo, según tus cálculos, sería viable una Asturias independiente, si el 65% de nuestro PIB son ayudas de la UE y de 1 millón de habitantes sólo trabajan 300.000? ¿Quién pagaría las pensiones de los miles de jubilados y prejubilados? ¿De qué viviría el resto? Porque ya no habría un "Estado" al que ordeñar. En fin, a lo mejor viviríamos del turismo que genera Covadonga y los Príncipes de Asturias....

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Mougias, forgive us for being so pathetic, but I'm not sure that calls for independence fit in this section (Events). Even so I will pick up the gauntlet : how, according to you, would an independent Asturias be feasible, if 65% of our gross interior product is made up of EU aids and out of a population of 1 Mill. only 300.000 have a job? Who would pay the pensions of the retirees and the pre-retirees? What would the rest live of? Because then there would no longer be a State to sap. Oh well, maybe we could live off the tourism that Covadonga and the princes of Asturias generate...?

Terechu

Terechu
I beg your pardon, I didn`t intend to sound patronizing when I said "pathetical". Atfer all it is not my business what do worry people about, Letizia or Fernando Alonso or Real Oviedo or whatever. For the record, I believe everyone is pathetical in some sense (me as anyone, but I won`t tell you why, OK? )
I am full aware of the odds against an Asturian independence, and there are even more than you have mentioned. That`s why I was kidding when made my call for independence. If you check it, you will see that I added inmediately a winking smiley.
However, I think there is not any reason for Asturias to depend upon external aid. I don`t understand how come our youngsters are leaving en masse, or why no one tries to have babies. It saddens me, because I love the country. You say we can`t be independent due to economical reasons, I tell you, why don`t we try to retrieve our economical independence? Why don`t we bring back the prosperity that made us "the new Basque country", as they called us in the early 1900`s? I think anyone, nationalist or not, will agree it would be great to be rich again, to have a hope in the future, and to bring back Asturian youth from Madrid, or England, or wherever they are now. Others have been able to overcome poverty and underdevelopment, why not us?
I think economic independence is far more important than having a seat in the UN.
I guess it is OK if someone feels happy that the new heir of Spanish monarchy was born in Asturias, but sincerely I don`t care much. Please, no offence. This board has kept polite for a long time, quite an exception in the web. Let`s keep it this way.
Sorry for the off-topic.

Hola Mouguias,
Gracias por "arreglarlo", consolándome con que todos somos patéticos de alguna manera!!!! No sales de una para meterte en otra!

Ya sé que eres un chaval muy majo, no te lo tuve en cuenta. A mí personalmente lo que hagan o dejen de hacer los príncipes me trae sin cuidado, pero como acontecimiento no deja de ser histórico. Eso es todo. Te aseguro que no soy aficionada al mundo rosa ni nada por el estilo.

Lo de Asturias no tiene arreglo. Volveremos a ser 300.000 habitantes, sin industria pesada, sin minería, sin pesca y sin agricultura. Como hace 150 años. Somos unos "mataos" y encima ahora no se puede emigrar y "hacer las Américas". Estamos condenados.

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Hi Mouguias,
Thanks for "fixing" it by saying that everyone is pathetic in some sense!! You jumped from the frying pan into the fire!

I know you're a nice guy and I don't hold it against you. I, personally, couldn't care less what the princes do or don't do, but this is nevertheless an historic event. That's all. I assure you I'm not interested in the world of tabloids or anything like that.

As to Asturias, it's hopeless. We'll go back to being 300.000 inhabitants, without heavy industry, without mines, without fishing industry and without agriculture. Like 150 years ago.
We are pitiful and, to make matters worse, we can no longer emigrate to "become rich in America". We are doomed!

Terechu

I don't think of this as a "off topic." Not at all! The societal health of Asturias is an important factor in the character of the place. How the royal marriage reflects and affects Asturians is for me the most interesting aspect of the prince's marriage to an Asturiana.

On the pathetic, I understood Mouguais to be saying that our preoccupation with it reflects our sad condition. That fits with my experience of Asturias. I have sensed in all of my visits to Asturias that there was a huge undercurrent of economic and cultural struggle--not in the sense of conflict but in the sense of difficult times.

Having listened to Asturians talk in this forum about their homeland for nearly a year, I've wondered if Asturians see themselves as "other," not quite part of Spain, not respected by the rest of the country, perhaps not carrying their own weight.

Mouguais' post (with the quip about independence and the serious call for working to create a healthy economy again) made me think about the relationship of dependence, independence, interdependence. (I've been reading about Bowen Family Systems theory, so my thoughts are colored by some of Bowen's ideas.)

Perhaps there are three basic options:
--remain dependent and keep bitching (this might be the current state),
--cut off from the larger "family" (Spain) and become independent (kind of like a "rebellious teenager" because under the surface Asturias would still be highly reactive to the family, so this doesn't really represent progress),
--work on bettering what one can (which means changing the one thing you can change: yourself)--all the while staying connected and interdependent.

Of course, for a region as large as Asturias to make a change like this might be much more difficult than for one person to change their direction. For an individual to change like this is extremely hard.

Bowen believed that one person can't change another, which makes changing a society impossible or difficult. Perhaps the solution is that to have an impact on the larger culture one individual has to change themselves and then see what effect that has on the larger culture. Maybe, maybe not. I like to think that unlikely things happen when a few visionaries take smart risks. Since I think of Asturians as intelligent and insightful (okay, I'm biased), I think it's a good bet!

Of course, I have an investment in all this or I wouldn't jump in on the discussion. I see many positive characteristics in Asturian culture and would love to participate physically (as compared to electronically). Obviously, the current economic conditions limit the options for everyone. I have thought a lot about what role I could play, but haven't yet found an answer that makes sense to me. Well, I could say m ore about my foibles, but I'll go with Mouguais when he said:

For the record, I believe everyone is pathetical in some sense (me as anyone, but I won't tell you why, OK?)

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Va a ser difícil traducirlo....

No pienso en esto como un "fuera del asunto." ¡No, en absoluto! La salud social de Asturias es un factor importante en el carácter del lugar. Como el matrimonio real refleja y afecta a asturianos es para mí el aspecto más interesante del matrimonio del príncipe a un Asturiana.

Sobre el "patético," entendí Mouguais decir que nuestra preocupación por el matrimonio refleja nuestra condición triste. Esto cabe con mi experiencia de Asturias. He sentido en todas mis visitas a Asturias que había una enorme "corriente submarina" de lucha económica y cultural--no en el sentido del conflicto, pero en el sentido de tiempos difíciles.

Habiendo escuchado a asturianos hablar en este foro de su patria ya durante casi un año, me he preguntado si los asturianos se ven como "otro", no exactamente una parte de España, no respetado por el resto del país, quizás no llevando su propio peso (no hacendo su parte).

El poste de Mouguais (con el chiste sobre la independencia y la llamada seria intentar para crear una economía sana otra vez) me hizo pensar en la relación de dependencia, independencia, interdependencia. (He estado leyendo sobre la teoría de Sistemas de Familia de Bowen, entonces mis pensamientos son coloreados por algunas ideas de Bowen.)

Quizás hay tres opciones básicas:
--dejar de dependencia y quejandose (esto podría ser el estado corriente),
--cortar "de la familia" más grande (España) y hacerse independiente (como hace "un adolescente rebelde" porque bajo la superficie Asturias todavía sería sumamente reactivo a la "familia," entonces esto realmente no representa ningun progreso),
--trabajar en mejorar lo que uno puede (que quiere decir el cambio de la unica cosa que puedo cambiar: mí mismo)--todo el tiempo siguiendo conectado y interdependiente.

Desde luego, para una región tan grande como Asturias para hacer un cambio como esto podría ser mucho más difícil que para una persona de cambiar su dirección. Y para un individuo cambiarse como esto es sumamente difícil.

Bowen creyó que una persona no puede cambiar el otro, lo que hace el cambio de una sociedad imposible o difícil. Quizás la solución consiste en que para hacer un impacto sobre la cultura más grande, un individuo tiene que cambiarse (su mismo) y luego ver que efecto tenga sobre la cultura más grande. Tal vez sí, tal vez no. Me gusta pensar que cosas improbables tener lugar cuando unos visionarios toman riesgos agudos (inteligentes). ¡Ya que pienso en asturianos como inteligentes y profundos (como "sabio") (pues, soy predipuesto), pienso que es una apuesta muy buena!

Desde luego, tengo una inversión en todo esto o no subiría al bordo de la discusión. Veo muchas características positivas en la cultura asturiana y gustaría participar físicamente (comparando con electrónicamente). Obviamente, las condiciones corrientes económicas limitan las opciones para cada uno. He pensado mucho sobre que el papel podría jugar, pero aún no he encontrado una respuesta que tiene sentido. Bueno, puedo decir más sobre mis debilidades, pero voy con Mouguais cuando dijo:

For the record, I believe everyone is pathetical in some sense (me as anyone, but I won't tell you why, OK?)

[¿Para el registro, creo que cada uno es patético en algún sentido (mí como todos, pero no le diré por qué, ¡Vale!?]

Mouguias reflects very precisely the state of rebellion of our youth. They are so right! They want to stay in their home region, but there are no jobs for them, unless they have “connections”. At this time the active workforce is 300.000, insufficient to support a population of 1 mill.; unfortunately, this situation will probably get worse.

People born in the sixties grew up thinking Asturias was “it”. We had a magnificent national steel industry, which employed 20.000 people, together with a not-so-magnificent mining industry, which employed almost as many. We had a heavy equipment industry, shipyards, a large fishing fleet and thousands of cattle farmers.

Those large, state-owned companies, paid good wages and so nobody felt the urge to start a business. We became a land of civil servants and well-paid, highly qualified industrial workers. But the “bonanza” didn’t last long.
We joined the EU (in 1983, I believe) and since then everything is slowly being dismantled or privatized, with thousands of job cuts - in return they give us handouts (they call them “cohesion funds”) and make us feel like beggars. Multinational companies have been buying up from chocolate factories to dairy cooperatives, often just to shut them down and make way for the star products (Nabisco, Kraft, Nestlé, etc.). Shipyards closed because Korea builts cheaper ships (with EU loans!), the fishing fleet lost more than 50% of its licenses (again the EU!) and our dairy farmers are selling their cows, because they get paid the same prices for their milk as 10 years ago, while feed has gone up up 200%.

Unfortunately, all production industries are gone forever (not just in Spain), because India or China are cheaper. The few large companies that remain (Duro Felguera, Arcelor, Hunosa, Asturiana de Zinc, etc.) are paying hunger salaries, because if you don’t like it you can lump it - after all there are 200 standing in line for your job. So what can young people do but look for alternative solutions? I’m not surprised they want to break away from this system and stop the blood-letting. It just breaks my heart to see them go, just yesterday we said goodbye a former work colleague who’s moving to Madrid, a 30-year old civil engineer, brilliant and fluid in 3 languages. Another talent lost. However, there’s no one in this region with money enough to create those thousands of jobs we lost. And we certainly can’t expect any fairy godmother to come and solve our problems. Like I said, we’re doomed!
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Mouguias refleja claramente el estado de rebelión de nuestros jóvenes. Cuánta razón tienen! Quieren quedarse en su tierra pero no hay trabajo para ellos, a no ser que tengan “enchufe”. En la actualidad la población activa es de 300.000, insuficiente para mantener a una población total de 1 millón; desafortunadamente esta situación seguramente que va a empeorar.

La gente que nació en los 60 se crió pensando que Asturias era la leche. Teníamos una industria metalúrgica estatal magnífica, que daba empleo a unas 20.000 personas, junto con una industria minera no tan magnífica, que daba empleo a otros tantos, casi. Teníamos industria pesada, astilleros, una gran flota pesquera y miles de ganaderos.

Aquellas industrias estatales pagaban bien, de modo que nadie se sentía llamado a montar una empresa. Nos convertimos en una tierra de funcionarios y de trabajadores especialistas muy cualificados y bien pagados. Pero la bonanza duró poco. Entramos en la UE (creo que en 1983) y desde entonces se ha estado desmantelando y privatizando todo poco a poco, con las consiguientes pérdidas de empleos – a cambio nos dan limosna (les llaman “fondos de cohesión”) y nos hacen sentirnos como mendigos. Las multinacionales han comprado desde fábricas de chocolate hasta cooperativas lecheras, muchas veces sólo para cerrarlas y hacer mercado para sus productos estrella (Nabisco, Kraft, Nestlé, etc.). Los astilleros fueron cerrando porque Corea hace barcos más baratos (con ayudas de la UE!), la flota pesquera perdió más de un 50% de las licencias (nuevamente la UE) y nuestros ganaderos están vendiendo sus vacas, porque les pagan lo mismo por la leche que hace 10 años, mientras que el pienso subió un 200%.

Lamentablemente las industrias de producción se han ido para siempre, no sólo en España, porque la India o la China son más baratas. Las pocas grandes empresas que quedan (Duro Felguera, Arcelor, Hunosa, Asturiana de Zinc) pagan salarios de miseria y si no te gusta te echas al pie de ello – al fin y al cabo hay otros 200 esperando a la cola por tu puesto. Así que qué van a hacer los jóvenes más que buscar salidas alternativas? No me sorprende que quieran romper con el sistema y parar la sangría. Me parte el corazón verlos marchar, todavía ayer despedimos a un antiguo compañero de trabajo que se va a Madrid, un ingeniero industrial de 30 años, brillante, que habla 3 idiomas con fluidez. Otro talento perdido.

Lo malo es que no hay nadie en esta región con dinero suficiente para crear los miles de puestos que perdimos. Y desde luego no esperamos que venga un hada madrina y nos solucione los problemas. Cómo decía, estamos condenados!

Terechu

Terechu, the details you list are compelling. It is a difficult situation, and as you say, it's not just in Asturias that these changes are occurring. It's happening here in the US, too. It's become a campaign issue this year. There has been lots of discussing about Bush's failure to create jobs, which was one of his administration's promises. (He dashed that possibility by cutting taxes for the very rich and cutting programs for everyone else.) It's also behind the increasingly pitched conversation about globalization and the outsourcing of manufacturing and high-tech jobs.

West Virginia has a history that relates to contemporary Asturian experience in a telling way. During Franklin D. Roosevelt's presidency, his wife Eleanor took an interest in the poverty in West Virginia. She started experimental programs like "Arthurdale," which was basically a government-sponsored socialist plan to raise people out of poverty. This was during the Great Depression, I assume. From the very little I know (I'm hoping others can help out here), the program was beginning to work. People formed (as I recall) craft guilds and learned trades. The whole point, I think, was that people can support themselves and organize themselves if they have the necessary tools. The program seemed to be working, but it wasn't long before the socialist tinge doomed the program to being cancelled. The homes in that area--built as part of the program--are truly beautiful even today.

Then in the 1960s (with the John F. Kennedy election), attention began focussing on poverty in WV again. This time the federal government got involved with cash handouts, things like food stamps and welfare, I think. One of my friends who lived for years in the sticks (out in the very rural countryside) commented that before welfare West Virginians were proudly self-reliant. Yes, many of them were poor, but everyone had a garden and they had a reputation as very hard working, tough people. After welfare, he thought West Virginians got lazy. Many fewer had gardens and people began relying on that monthly check in the mailbox. My friend may have ignored a few key details, such as the massive exodus from the state that occurred during and after WWII, so this is obviously not the whole picture. Let me be very clear: this is clearly grossly oversimplified to the point of being insulting. It's not my desire to insult anyone but to look at the effect of government subsidies.

This pattern may be instructive for what's now happening in Asturias. Similar to Asturias, WV's mining industry has lost many, many jobs. Small farming is in decline or transition, largely because old-time small farmers can't survive on that level of productivity, I'd guess. At least some of WV's heavy industry is gone, as I understand it. The state has been losing population for years. It can be a wonderful place to live because of the natural beauty of those areas that haven't been destroyed by mining and industry, but it's been difficult to create new jobs (at least that was how it was when I lived there up until the mid 1990s).

The impressive thing, though is that politicians and business people were working hard to strengthen the regional economy and some of their efforts seemed to be working. One effort was in creating a high tech corridor between Morgantown and Clarksburg. Senator Bryd was instrumental in bringing in a major FBI (Federal Bureau of Investigation) office. The thing I remember most was Morgantown business people with small cloth labels sewn to their sleeves, saying something like "believe." The idea was that if you believe in the possibility of something, it's already much more likely.

This is why I'd rather not think of ourselves as doomed, because that precludes action and hope. I'd like to keep open the possibility that there is an answer or many answers, even if I don't see any of them yet. Someone will. Who knows, it may even be someone in this forum! It's only by discussing it and thinking outside the bounds of we know now that things can get better.

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Terechu, los detalles que catalogas son convincentes. Esto es una situación difícil, y como dices, no es solamente en Asturias que estos cambios ocurren. Esto pasa aquí en EU, también. Se ha hecho una cuestión de campaña este año. Hubo mucha discusión sobre el fracaso de Bush de crear empleos, que eran una de las promesas de su administración. (Él rompió aquella posibilidad por bajando los impuestos para los muy ricos y cortando programas para todos los demás.) Es también detrás de la conversación cada vez más ruidoso sobre la globalización y la externalización de empleos de fabricación y alta tecnología.

Virginia Occidental tiene una historia que se relaciona con la experiencia contemporánea asturiana de un modo que cuenta. Durante la presidencia de Franklin D. Roosevelt, su esposa Eleanor tomó un interés a la pobreza en Virginia Occidental. Ella comenzó programas experimentales como "Arthurdale", que era básicamente un plan socialista patrocinado por el gobierno para levantar a la gente de la pobreza. Esto era durante la Gran Depresión, asumo. Del poco que sé (espero que otros puedan ayudarme aquí), el programa comenzaba a trabajar. La gente se formó (como recuerdo) gremios de artesanía y aprendió profesiones. El punto entero, pienso, era que la gente puede apoyarse y organizarse si ellos tienen los instrumentos necesarios. El programa pareció trabajar, pero no era mucho antes del tinte socialista condenado el programa a la cancelación. Las casas en aquella área - construido como la parte del programa - son realmente hermosas aún hoy.

Entonces en los años 1960 (con la elección de John F. Kennedy), la atención comenzó a enfocar sobre la pobreza en WV otra vez. Esta vez el gobierno federal empezó dadíva, cosas como vales de comida y bienestar social, pienso. Uno de mis amigos quien vivia durante años en la Cochinchina (vivia en el campo muy rural) comentó que antes de que habia bienestar social, las de Virginia Occidental fueran orgullos de su independiencia. Sí, muchos de eran pobres, pero cada uno tenía un huerta y la gente tenía una reputación como muy trabajadores, como gente resistente. Después del bienestar social, pensó que los de Virginia Occidental se hizo perezoso. Muchos menos tenían huertas y la gente comenzó a depender de aquella cheque mensual en el buzón. Puede ser mi amigo olvidó de unos detalles claves, como el éxodo masivo del estado que ocurrió durante y después WWII. Obviamente, no es un visión completo. Déjeme estar muy claro: esto claramente es extremamente simplificado, al punto de ser insultante. No quiero insultar a alguien, pero mirar el efecto de subvenciones de gobierno.

Este modelo puede ser instructivo para lo que ahora pasa en Asturias. Similar a Asturias, la industria minera del WV ha perdido muchos, muchos empleos. La agricultura de pequeñas granjas está en la disminución o la transición, en gran parte porque pequeños agricultores antiguos no pueden sobrevivir sobre aquel nivel de productividad, adivinaría. Al menos un parte de la industria pesada del WV ha salido, como lo entiendo. El estado ha estado perdiendo la población durante años. WV puede ser un sitio maravilloso para vivir debido a la belleza natural de aquellas áreas que no han sido destruidas por extrayendo minera y la industria, pero ha sido difícil de crear nuevos empleos (al menos era así cuando vivía allí en los años 1990s).

Lo que me impresiona es que los políticos y la gente de negocio trabajaban muchísimo para reforzar la economía regional y algunos de sus esfuerzos pareció trabajar. Un esfuerzo estaba en la creación de un "corredor" de alta tecnología entre Morgantown y Clarksburg. El senador Bryd contribuyó decisivamente a la introducción de una officina mayor del FBI (Brigada de Investigación Criminal). La cosa que más recuerdo era la gente de negocio de Morgantown con un pequeño paño etiqueta cosido a sus mangas, diciendo algo como "cree". La idea era que si se cree en la posibilidad de algo, ya es mucho más probable.

Por eso yo preferiría no pensar en nosotros como condenados, porque esto excluye la acción y esperanza. Me gustaría mantener la mente abierto a la posibilidad de una respuesta o muchas respuestas, incluso si no veo a ningunos de ellos ahora. Alguien va a verlo. ¡Quién sabe, aún puede ser alguien en este foro! Es sólo por hablar de ello y pensar fuera de los límites de lo que sabemos ahora que las cosas pueden mejorarse.

There is a new area of the forum about envisioning a better future for Asturias:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=52

I'm looking forward to further discussion of this issue there.

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Hay una nueva zona del foro sobre prever un futuro mejor para Asturias:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=52

Tengo ganas de continuar la discusión allí.