FAQ
Search
Members
Groups
Register
User Control Panel
Log in to check your private messages.
Login
Otro artículo :
El problema de la izquierda en Estados Unidos
Por Norman Birnbaum
El País (22/10/04)
¿Quién recuerda hoy que Karl Marx pensó en la posibilidad de que Estados Unidos, libre de los suplicios históricos y metafísicos de Europa, encabezara la marcha hacia el socialismo? ¿Qué es, hoy, la izquierda en Estados Unidos?
Existen cuatro corrientes distintas en la oposición estadounidense. Una busca una socialdemocracia norteamericana. Otra pretende construir un internacionalismo desmilitarizado y social para Estados Unidos. La tercera lucha por los derechos civiles, los negros y las minorías étnicas, las mujeres y los homosexuales. La cuarta implica un debate sobre culturas alternativas: para vivir mejor es necesario vivir de otra forma. Estas posturas carecen de denominador común, y sus partidarios se ven obligados a defender las victorias conseguidas frente a la contraofensiva de los agentes del imperio y el mercado.
El principal vehículo de la izquierda en Estados Unidos es el Partido Demócrata, pero es un vehículo en mal estado. Con Clinton y los nuevos demócratas, que repudiaron gran parte de la historia del partido, los demócratas perdieron la mayoría en las dos cámaras del Congreso, varios puestos de gobernadores importantes y las cámaras en unos cuantos Estados cruciales. En su mayoría, los demócratas preferían como candidato presidencial al congresista Gephardt (próximo a los sindicatos) o al gobernador Dean (por su oposición a la guerra). Sin embargo, al final se conformaron con el senador Kerry, que anuncia en voz alta que "no va a haber redistribución" y cuya posición sobre Irak está envuelta en la niebla de la guerra. El partido no es un grupo de afiliados, sino una mezcla inestable de aparatos políticos estatales, grupos de intereses y donantes. Está dividido ideológicamente, entre los herederos de Franklin Roosevelt y Lyndon Johnson, que defienden el Estado de bienestar, y los nuevos demócratas, que buscan compromisos aún más amplios con el capital organizado.
La fuerza de la izquierda estadounidense se encuentra en las organizaciones que financian las campañas y movilizan a los ciudadanos. Las más importantes son los sindicatos pertenecientes a la federación AFL-CIO. Pero los sindicatos sólo incluyen alrededor del 13% de los trabajadores (hubo un tiempo en el que llegaban a un tercio), y su debilidad es la causa más visible de la fragilidad de la socialdemocracia en Estados Unidos. Están perdiendo a los trabajadores de más edad, a medida que la economía se desindustrializa, y esa pérdida no se compensa con los trabajadores del sector de servicios ni los que tienen más nivel educativo, aparte de los enseñantes. Algunos dirigentes sindicales elaboran nuevas estrategias de movilización política, especialmente con los inmigrantes más recientes, pero, hasta ahora, los resultados han sido discretos.
A la lucha de los sindicatos por los derechos económicos se une la de los grupos de interés público que se dedican a defender al consumidor, proteger el medio ambiente, regular el capitalismo descontrolado y aumentar la participación política mediante la reforma de unos procedimientos electorales defectuosos. Gran parte de la acción se desarrolla en el Congreso, a veces en las cámaras de los Estados y con frecuencia en forma de razonamientos constitucionales y legales ante los tribunales. La críptica politización del proceso judicial y la fragmentación de la política legislativa hacen muy difícil el desarrollo de una estrategia común. La izquierda no ha conseguido explotar la vaga desconfianza de la sociedad estadounidense hacia el capital, entre otras cosas, porque en el propio Partido Demócrata hay representantes de ese capital muy bien establecidos.
Durante muchos años, además de Kennedy en el Senado, los líderes de estas fuerzas fuera del Congreso fueron el reverendo Jesse Jackson (cuyos intereses no se limitaban, ni mucho menos, a representar a los negros) y Ralph Nader. Jackson sigue trabajando sin descanso. Nader, resentido contra los demócratas, vuelve a presentarse a las elecciones. Hay varios Estados importantes en los que no se ha admitido su candidatura, pero tiene la capacidad de destruirse a sí mismo y dañar a los que antes eran sus amigos. En el año 2000 se presentó por el Partido Verde, pero, en esta ocasión, ellos presentan otro candidato. En Estados Unidos, los Verdes tienen bastante fuerza en algunos Estados (Maine y Nuevo México, por ejemplo), pero nuestro sistema mayoritario, en el que el voto no es proporcional, les perjudica sobremanera. Lo que sí tienen es gran capacidad de movilización local.
El voto proporcional permitiría que las elecciones presidenciales dejaran de depender de unos cuantos Estados. En la actualidad, las campañas nacionales oscilan entre el vacío ideológico (para no ofender a nadie) y la capitulación oportunista ante el chantaje electoral (utilizado por los grupos de presión que propugnan la cristianización de la vida pública, el acceso sin límites a las armas de fuego, la destrucción del Gobierno de Castro, etcétera). El voto proporcional, que repartiría los votos electorales de cada Estado con arreglo a los votos reales, en vez de dárselos todos al ganador, avanza con gran lentitud. Nuestra Constitución, que se muestra contraria al voto mayoritario, porque así se quiso para impedir la eliminación de la esclavitud por métodos democráticos, no se ha sometido todavía a ningún gran debate público.
La división de la izquierda es muy pronunciada, sobre todo en lo relacionado con el imperio. (La agrupación que reúne a la izquierda del partido, la Campaña para el Futuro de América, evita mencionar la guerra de Irak.) Las dos organizaciones de masas que se oponen a la militarización de la política nacional son la Iglesia católica, con el 25% del país, y las iglesias protestantes del Consejo Nacional de las Iglesias, que representan al 50%. Lo que opinan los obispos, teólogos, rectores de iglesias, pastores y sacerdotes no siempre lo comparten los fieles. La angustia, la ignorancia y el patrioterismo hacen que muchos ciudadanos (por ejemplo, los sindicalistas) no se den cuenta de que a los pueblos del mundo les gustaría que Estados Unidos dejase de intentar salvarlos de sí mismos.
Contamos con una clase intelectual antiimperialista, aunque no en las páginas editoriales o en los departamentos de relaciones internacionales de las universidades. Hay muchos altos funcionarios y diplomáticos más dispuestos a enfrentarse a Bush que la mayoría de los demócratas del Congreso. La "guerra contra el terror" no ha parado a los "terroristas", pero sí ha intimidado a periodistas y políticos. La reforma social en Estados Unidos está en deuda con el catolicismo.
Un saludo.
2004 election in the US
Moderator: Moderators
-
Barbara Alonso Novellino
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:54 pm
- Location: Long Island, New York
- asturias_and_me:
Barbara, I really do want to understand what you are thinking. This time you didn't tell us whether you found that link interesting, offensive, or ?? It's a fairly difficult piece to interpret, so some comment would help us understand why you posted it.
I suppose we can assume that you think it's pro-Bush, or you wouldn't have posted it.
But, my goodness.... There must be a totally different way of reading that thing depending on how you view our current situation and reality.
Why does "Islam" appear on the screen over and over? Do Republicans really view Moslems as the enemy? Isn't that a horribly broad exaggeration? If so, this is strikingly intolerant, fearful bigotry and we should all be worried about the future of America and the world.
And what's the song saying about "it's hard to kick against a priest"? Is Bush anti-Catholic, too?
Ahh...."There's a man going around taking names." Does that refer to a totalitarian dictatorship? to Jesus' return? or what? In my experience when someone talks about "the man" they're not speaking positively. It's someone who has power over us and who is distrusted and disliked. I guess it could be about Bush.
I'd guess that this was originally a song about Jesus' second coming but that here it's used to support Bush's second election. Wouldn't it be sacrilegious to equate Bush and Jesus?
The line in the song, "Everybody won't be treated all the same" sure could be linked to Bush, who's treated his ultra-rich friends much better than he's treated you or me.
At least the thing shows that our soldiers (and more) are dying for Bush's folly.
I was surprised that it even shows protesters holding a banner declaring that Bush is a fascist. I saw a Bush ad several months ago that had a picture of Nazis and then Bush doing what looked like a Nazi zeig heil salute.
My reading of this bizarre piece is that it tosses together a bitter salad made from images related to a conservative vision of the issues in this election. The vision is comfortable with religious bigotry, totalitarianism, perhaps even fascism.
Is this a sign of what's in store for us if we get four more years of Bush?
Hmm. Isn't that a Johnny Cash song? Wasn't Cash a liberal on social issues who was harshly criticized by the Right? Maybe that's why this piece is so confusing. Cash's perspective doesn't blend with the political vision of the creator of that thing, and the creator doesn't seem to get that or see the discrepancies.
Do you really identify with this message? Please tell us what you had in mind.
-----------------
Barbara, de verdad quiero entender lo que piensas. Esta vez no nos dijiste si encontraste esa eslabón interesante, ofensivo, o qué¿? Es un trabajo bastante difícil intérpretar, entonces algún comentario nos ayudaría a entender por qué lo fijaste.
Supongo que podemos asumir que piensas es a favor de Bush, o no lo habrías fijado.
Pero, dios mio.... Debe ser un modo totalmente diferente de entender aquella obra dependiendo como se entende nuestra situación corriente y realidad.
¿Por qué aparece "Islam" sobre la pantalla una y otra vez? ¿Realmente ven los republicanos a musulmanes como el enemigo? ¿No es una exageración horriblemente (demasiado) amplia? Si es así, esto es el un fanatismo increíblemente intolerante y temeroso, y todos deberíamos estar preocupados sobre el futuro de América y el mundo.
¿Y cómo dice la canción sobre "es difícil de dar patadas contra un sacerdote"? ¿Es Bush anticatólico, también?
Ahh.... "Hay el hombre [the man] dando la vuelta que toma nombres." ¿Se refiere esto a una dictadura totalitaria? ¿a la vuelta de Jesús? ¿o qué? En mi experiencia cuando alguien habla "del hombre" [the man], no hablan positivamente. Es alguien que tiene poder contra nosotros y a quién desconfían y tienen aversión. Adivino podría refiere a Bush.
Adivinaría que era al principio una canción sobre la segunda llegada de Jesús, pero que aquí es usado apoyar la segunda elección de Bush. ¿No sería sacrílego comparar Bush y Jesús?
La línea en la canción, "Cada uno no será tratado todos lo mismo", seguro podría ser vinculado a Bush, que ha tratado a sus amigos ultraricos mucho mejor que ha tratado a tú o a mí.
Al menos el trabajo muestra que nuestros soldados (y más) mueren para la locura de Bush.
Estuve sorprendido que esto aún muestra a protestadores que sostienen una bandera que declara que Bush es un fascista. Vi un anuncio de Bush hace varios meses que tenía una imagen de Nazis y luego una imagen de Bush que hace lo que se pareció una saludo zeig heil de los Nazis.
Mi lectura de este obra extraña es que mescla una ensalada amarga de imágenes relacionadas con una visión conservadora de las cuestiones de esta elección. La visión es cómoda con el fanatismo religioso, el totalitarismo, quizás aún el fascismo.
¿Es un signo de lo qué le aguarda a nosotros si hay cuatro años más de Bush?
Um. ¿No es una canción de Johnny Cash? ¿No era Cash un liberal sobre las cuestiones sociales para que era severamente criticado por la Derecha? Tal vez sea por eso que este trabajo es tan confuso. La perspectiva de Cash no se mezcla bien con la visión política del creador de aquella cosa, y el creador no parece entenderlo ni ver las discrepancias.
¿Realmente te identificas con este mensaje? Por favor, dinos lo que estaba pensando.
I suppose we can assume that you think it's pro-Bush, or you wouldn't have posted it.
But, my goodness.... There must be a totally different way of reading that thing depending on how you view our current situation and reality.
Why does "Islam" appear on the screen over and over? Do Republicans really view Moslems as the enemy? Isn't that a horribly broad exaggeration? If so, this is strikingly intolerant, fearful bigotry and we should all be worried about the future of America and the world.
And what's the song saying about "it's hard to kick against a priest"? Is Bush anti-Catholic, too?
Ahh...."There's a man going around taking names." Does that refer to a totalitarian dictatorship? to Jesus' return? or what? In my experience when someone talks about "the man" they're not speaking positively. It's someone who has power over us and who is distrusted and disliked. I guess it could be about Bush.
I'd guess that this was originally a song about Jesus' second coming but that here it's used to support Bush's second election. Wouldn't it be sacrilegious to equate Bush and Jesus?
The line in the song, "Everybody won't be treated all the same" sure could be linked to Bush, who's treated his ultra-rich friends much better than he's treated you or me.
At least the thing shows that our soldiers (and more) are dying for Bush's folly.
I was surprised that it even shows protesters holding a banner declaring that Bush is a fascist. I saw a Bush ad several months ago that had a picture of Nazis and then Bush doing what looked like a Nazi zeig heil salute.
My reading of this bizarre piece is that it tosses together a bitter salad made from images related to a conservative vision of the issues in this election. The vision is comfortable with religious bigotry, totalitarianism, perhaps even fascism.
Is this a sign of what's in store for us if we get four more years of Bush?
Hmm. Isn't that a Johnny Cash song? Wasn't Cash a liberal on social issues who was harshly criticized by the Right? Maybe that's why this piece is so confusing. Cash's perspective doesn't blend with the political vision of the creator of that thing, and the creator doesn't seem to get that or see the discrepancies.
Do you really identify with this message? Please tell us what you had in mind.
-----------------
Barbara, de verdad quiero entender lo que piensas. Esta vez no nos dijiste si encontraste esa eslabón interesante, ofensivo, o qué¿? Es un trabajo bastante difícil intérpretar, entonces algún comentario nos ayudaría a entender por qué lo fijaste.
Supongo que podemos asumir que piensas es a favor de Bush, o no lo habrías fijado.
Pero, dios mio.... Debe ser un modo totalmente diferente de entender aquella obra dependiendo como se entende nuestra situación corriente y realidad.
¿Por qué aparece "Islam" sobre la pantalla una y otra vez? ¿Realmente ven los republicanos a musulmanes como el enemigo? ¿No es una exageración horriblemente (demasiado) amplia? Si es así, esto es el un fanatismo increíblemente intolerante y temeroso, y todos deberíamos estar preocupados sobre el futuro de América y el mundo.
¿Y cómo dice la canción sobre "es difícil de dar patadas contra un sacerdote"? ¿Es Bush anticatólico, también?
Ahh.... "Hay el hombre [the man] dando la vuelta que toma nombres." ¿Se refiere esto a una dictadura totalitaria? ¿a la vuelta de Jesús? ¿o qué? En mi experiencia cuando alguien habla "del hombre" [the man], no hablan positivamente. Es alguien que tiene poder contra nosotros y a quién desconfían y tienen aversión. Adivino podría refiere a Bush.
Adivinaría que era al principio una canción sobre la segunda llegada de Jesús, pero que aquí es usado apoyar la segunda elección de Bush. ¿No sería sacrílego comparar Bush y Jesús?
La línea en la canción, "Cada uno no será tratado todos lo mismo", seguro podría ser vinculado a Bush, que ha tratado a sus amigos ultraricos mucho mejor que ha tratado a tú o a mí.
Al menos el trabajo muestra que nuestros soldados (y más) mueren para la locura de Bush.
Estuve sorprendido que esto aún muestra a protestadores que sostienen una bandera que declara que Bush es un fascista. Vi un anuncio de Bush hace varios meses que tenía una imagen de Nazis y luego una imagen de Bush que hace lo que se pareció una saludo zeig heil de los Nazis.
Mi lectura de este obra extraña es que mescla una ensalada amarga de imágenes relacionadas con una visión conservadora de las cuestiones de esta elección. La visión es cómoda con el fanatismo religioso, el totalitarismo, quizás aún el fascismo.
¿Es un signo de lo qué le aguarda a nosotros si hay cuatro años más de Bush?
Um. ¿No es una canción de Johnny Cash? ¿No era Cash un liberal sobre las cuestiones sociales para que era severamente criticado por la Derecha? Tal vez sea por eso que este trabajo es tan confuso. La perspectiva de Cash no se mezcla bien con la visión política del creador de aquella cosa, y el creador no parece entenderlo ni ver las discrepancias.
¿Realmente te identificas con este mensaje? Por favor, dinos lo que estaba pensando.
Last edited by Art on Wed Feb 08, 2006 3:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Terechu
- Moderator
- Posts: 1540
- Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2003 4:43 am
- Location: GIJON - ASTURIAS
- asturias_and_me:
I finally got around to watching the whole thing and found it absolutely apalling! Whoever put it together has an unhealthy fixation for men in uniform and is in love with Bush, to judge from his choice of pictures. The part about Islam and who America's friends or enemies are is so idiotic and so primitive, I'm not even going to say it's fascist, it's just bordering mental retardation. Unfortunately idiots are dangerous, because they have no capacity to reason and yet are allowed to have guns.
----------------------------------------------
Por fin tuve tiempo de ver todo el tinglado y me pareció repulsivo. El que lo preparó tiene una fijación malsana con los hombres de uniforme y está enamorado de Bush, a juzgar por la selección de fotos. La parte sobre el islam y sobre quienes son los amigos/enemigos de América es tan idiota y tan primitiva, que ni siquiera voy a decir que es fascista, simplemente raya en la oligofrenia. Lamentablemente los idiotas son peligrosos porque no tienen capacidad de raciocinio y encima les permiten tener armas.
----------------------------------------------
Por fin tuve tiempo de ver todo el tinglado y me pareció repulsivo. El que lo preparó tiene una fijación malsana con los hombres de uniforme y está enamorado de Bush, a juzgar por la selección de fotos. La parte sobre el islam y sobre quienes son los amigos/enemigos de América es tan idiota y tan primitiva, que ni siquiera voy a decir que es fascista, simplemente raya en la oligofrenia. Lamentablemente los idiotas son peligrosos porque no tienen capacidad de raciocinio y encima les permiten tener armas.
First a note on vocabulary: I was searching for a word like "tinglado" unsuccessfully. So thanks, Terechu!
There's a question I wonder about a lot when discussing topics like this: What is the point, if we aren't likely to make major changes in each others' thinking? Of course, such change is possible, just not likely. I made 180° turn in my thinking on several big topics over the years to:
Do you have anything to add to the list?
--------------
Primero una nota de vocabulario: Estaba buscando una palabra come "tinglado" sin exito. Pues, ¡gracias a Terechu!
Hay una pregunta de que me pregunto mucho cuando hablamos de asuntos como esto: ¿Qué sentido tiene, si probablemente no efectuamos cambios principales del pensamiento de uno a otro? Desde luego, tal cambio es posible, solamente no es probablemente. Hice una vuelta de 180 grados en mi pensamiento sobre varios asuntos grandes durante los años incluido:
¿Tienes algo añadir a la lista?
There's a question I wonder about a lot when discussing topics like this: What is the point, if we aren't likely to make major changes in each others' thinking? Of course, such change is possible, just not likely. I made 180° turn in my thinking on several big topics over the years to:
- support the right to abortion,
- support women's rights, and
- not support upper income limitations on the right to receive Social Security.
- One is that I am often amazed to learn what my friends are thinking. Just knowing that is worthwhile because it broadens my little world.
- A second is that I sometimes find that my initial opinions were based on bad information or that there is a better way to think about a topic.
- A third is that by writing these things down, I'm forced to be clearer about what I believe about a topic.
Do you have anything to add to the list?
--------------
Primero una nota de vocabulario: Estaba buscando una palabra come "tinglado" sin exito. Pues, ¡gracias a Terechu!
Hay una pregunta de que me pregunto mucho cuando hablamos de asuntos como esto: ¿Qué sentido tiene, si probablemente no efectuamos cambios principales del pensamiento de uno a otro? Desde luego, tal cambio es posible, solamente no es probablemente. Hice una vuelta de 180 grados en mi pensamiento sobre varios asuntos grandes durante los años incluido:
- apoyar el derecho al aborto,
- apoyar los derechos de mujeres,
- no apoyar limitaciones de ingreso superiores a la derecha para recibir la Seguridad Social.
- Uno es que a menudo estoy asombrado en aprender lo que mis amigos piensan. Solamente el saberlo vale la pena porque esto ensancha mi mundo pequeño.
- Segundo es que a veces encuentro que mis opiniones iniciales estaban basadas en información mala o que hay un mejor modo de pensar en un asunto.
- Un tercio es que el hecho de escribir estas cosas me fuerza a ser más claro sobre lo que creo sobre un asunto.
¿Tienes algo añadir a la lista?
I personally grow weary of reading about the U.S. being a barbaric country and how idiotic our president is. Perhaps those who consider the U.S. barbaric should study a little more history of their own country. Then they'll know about barbarism.
True, the U.S is not perfect, but I can't think of a better place to live in. What country has had more consistent freedom in recent history? What country has done more humanitarian work throughout the world?
As for who becomes the next president, I have lived under several Democratic presidents and under several Republican presidents. The truth is that although they all promise the world while trying to get elected, most of those promises are soon forgotten and I see little change in my life style. The main difference-maker in my life is ME.
So those who rant and rave about the U.S. and how evil it is, go ahead....if it makes you feel better.
A proud Asturian and a proud American,
Corsino.
True, the U.S is not perfect, but I can't think of a better place to live in. What country has had more consistent freedom in recent history? What country has done more humanitarian work throughout the world?
As for who becomes the next president, I have lived under several Democratic presidents and under several Republican presidents. The truth is that although they all promise the world while trying to get elected, most of those promises are soon forgotten and I see little change in my life style. The main difference-maker in my life is ME.
So those who rant and rave about the U.S. and how evil it is, go ahead....if it makes you feel better.
A proud Asturian and a proud American,
Corsino.
-
Terechu
- Moderator
- Posts: 1540
- Joined: Tue Jun 24, 2003 4:43 am
- Location: GIJON - ASTURIAS
- asturias_and_me:
We shouldn't get things mixed up, critizising Bush is not critizising the USA, far from it. Everybody has a reason to vote for whomever they vote, and every choice is just as respectable as the other.
We are openly critical, because we are the same about our own country, as you will have noticed. 40 years of forced silence have these consequences
The fact is that Bush's politics affect all western countries, and for Spain, as a US ally, it has the following consequences
- Islamist terrorism (a whole different dimension compared to ETA's) = fear + drop in tourist rates
- Hostility from neighboring Arab countries, i.e.Spanish investments in Arab countries are endangered = Spaniards working in Morocco or Algeria are returning home
- Oil prices have doubled since last year = higher prices (but not salaries), less economic growth
- Spain had to send troops to Afghanistan to compensate for the withdrawal from Iraq
- European citizens, who until now didn't need a visa, can no longer enter the USA without being photographed and fingerprinted like criminals at the Immigration Service
Now, Islamist radicals can go to hell, and terrorism has to be fought relentlessly, but living in peace with our neighbours is very important and backing the Iraq war has turned many against us. Iraq had nothing to do with Al-Qaeda.
That is our reality, and that's why we want Bush out. Your reality is entirely different, so you have to vote for whom you consider best, but again, this has nothing to do with liking or disliking the USA or its citizens, on the contrary.
Cheers
Terechu
We are openly critical, because we are the same about our own country, as you will have noticed. 40 years of forced silence have these consequences
The fact is that Bush's politics affect all western countries, and for Spain, as a US ally, it has the following consequences
- Islamist terrorism (a whole different dimension compared to ETA's) = fear + drop in tourist rates
- Hostility from neighboring Arab countries, i.e.Spanish investments in Arab countries are endangered = Spaniards working in Morocco or Algeria are returning home
- Oil prices have doubled since last year = higher prices (but not salaries), less economic growth
- Spain had to send troops to Afghanistan to compensate for the withdrawal from Iraq
- European citizens, who until now didn't need a visa, can no longer enter the USA without being photographed and fingerprinted like criminals at the Immigration Service
Now, Islamist radicals can go to hell, and terrorism has to be fought relentlessly, but living in peace with our neighbours is very important and backing the Iraq war has turned many against us. Iraq had nothing to do with Al-Qaeda.
That is our reality, and that's why we want Bush out. Your reality is entirely different, so you have to vote for whom you consider best, but again, this has nothing to do with liking or disliking the USA or its citizens, on the contrary.
Cheers
Terechu
Terechu
In other areas of discussion, I consider you a level-headed lady. But when it comes to politics, I think you have gone ballistic. We are free to disagree, and express those disagreements. However, I think that your personal attacks on not only our president, but on his wife, and the excessive use of your favorite word "stupid" is unwarranted. Believe me, Bush is anything but stupid. He may not be the slick-talking usual politician, but he's definitely not stupid.
In a couple of days I will vote for the man who has moral values closest to mine, a fellow Texan.
In other areas of discussion, I consider you a level-headed lady. But when it comes to politics, I think you have gone ballistic. We are free to disagree, and express those disagreements. However, I think that your personal attacks on not only our president, but on his wife, and the excessive use of your favorite word "stupid" is unwarranted. Believe me, Bush is anything but stupid. He may not be the slick-talking usual politician, but he's definitely not stupid.
In a couple of days I will vote for the man who has moral values closest to mine, a fellow Texan.
-
Barbara Alonso Novellino
- Posts: 321
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2003 9:54 pm
- Location: Long Island, New York
- asturias_and_me:
Corsino,
I want to THANK YOU for entering this Forum and voicing your opinion. This has been an ongoing battle between me and Ken on the one side, and Xose, Art and Terechu on the other side.
They have leveled insult after insult against President Bush. After the last round I promised myself that I would no longer answer their ravings. However, I do have to Thank You.
I too, will enter my vote on Tuesday for GEORGE W. BUSH the man from Texas. I pray GOD that he will be re-elected...
Abrazos
Barbara
I want to THANK YOU for entering this Forum and voicing your opinion. This has been an ongoing battle between me and Ken on the one side, and Xose, Art and Terechu on the other side.
They have leveled insult after insult against President Bush. After the last round I promised myself that I would no longer answer their ravings. However, I do have to Thank You.
I too, will enter my vote on Tuesday for GEORGE W. BUSH the man from Texas. I pray GOD that he will be re-elected...
Abrazos
Barbara
Barbara
Although I'll vote for Bush, that is not to say that I agree with everything he's done, or how he's done it. For instance, I don't agree on how he's handled the Iraqi situation , although something had to be done to get rid of Saddam. While some say that the U.N. should have led the effort, it is clear that it does not have the backbone to enforce its resolutions, and is largely ineffectual, just as the League of Nations was many years ago.
But now we are committed, and it's no time to be weak. I remember a quote from a movie:
"Now remember, things look bad and it looks like you're not going to make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up, then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is."
Although I'll vote for Bush, that is not to say that I agree with everything he's done, or how he's done it. For instance, I don't agree on how he's handled the Iraqi situation , although something had to be done to get rid of Saddam. While some say that the U.N. should have led the effort, it is clear that it does not have the backbone to enforce its resolutions, and is largely ineffectual, just as the League of Nations was many years ago.
But now we are committed, and it's no time to be weak. I remember a quote from a movie:
"Now remember, things look bad and it looks like you're not going to make it, then you gotta get mean. I mean plumb, mad-dog mean. 'Cause if you lose your head and you give up, then you neither live nor win. That's just the way it is."
Barbara, your posts are cracking me up.
Sorry, I don't see how people can think Bush is a moral man when he obviously supports the killing and maiming of innocent Iraqi citizens, waging stupid wars with other people's sons and daughters, and cutting the ultra-rich tax breaks while cutting funding for programs that help poor soldiers' families. Those are not American values. Neither is using bullying tactics and bogus "felon" rolls to steal elections. Bush is STILL an immoral fool.
Sorry, I don't see how people can think Bush is a moral man when he obviously supports the killing and maiming of innocent Iraqi citizens, waging stupid wars with other people's sons and daughters, and cutting the ultra-rich tax breaks while cutting funding for programs that help poor soldiers' families. Those are not American values. Neither is using bullying tactics and bogus "felon" rolls to steal elections. Bush is STILL an immoral fool.
-
Ken Menendez
- Posts: 108
- Joined: Mon Jul 14, 2003 4:53 pm
- Location: Overland Park, Kansas (formerly from Spelter, WV)
- asturias_and_me:
Corsino, thank you for your comments. As Barbara stated, her and I have been trying to reason with Terechu, Xose and Art to tone down their language of hatred. They have claimed that Barbara and I are unreasonable; however, their bomb throwing at Bush and name calling, to include Laura Bush, has totally destroyed any relationship that I would have with them. I have been staying away from the Forum as a result of those three.
Terechu remains me a lot of Europeans, like the French, that hide behind the words, "I like Americans, but not your government". That's b...s...!
Anyway, I too will be voting for Bush. In Kansas, where I live, Bush is leading in the polls 55% to Kerry's 38%, with 1% Nader and 6% undecided. In Kansas we have two Republican senators, a Democrat governor and in my congressional district, a district that is heavily Republican, a Democrat congressman. The congressman is well respected by us, and I have voted for him in the last two elections. He is moderate and non-mud slinging.
Anyway your comments are appreciated.
Terechu remains me a lot of Europeans, like the French, that hide behind the words, "I like Americans, but not your government". That's b...s...!
Anyway, I too will be voting for Bush. In Kansas, where I live, Bush is leading in the polls 55% to Kerry's 38%, with 1% Nader and 6% undecided. In Kansas we have two Republican senators, a Democrat governor and in my congressional district, a district that is heavily Republican, a Democrat congressman. The congressman is well respected by us, and I have voted for him in the last two elections. He is moderate and non-mud slinging.
Anyway your comments are appreciated.
Ken
When I first came to Texas, all the elected politicians were Democrats. Hardly any Republicans were even on the ballots. Then gradually, actually faster than one might think, the opinions of the people changed. I don't pretend to know why. I would guess that people realized that although Democrats always promised to take care of the underprivileged, etc..., they were not fulfilling their promises. Now Texas is classified as a Republican state.
I have noticed that some anti-Bush posters, particularly Sr.X, use extremely insulting and inflamatory language. He would make a good propagandist for the enemies of our country. Whether some people realize it or not, we are at war. Not a conventional war as those in the past, but a war nevertheless. Unfortunately, it is true that at times innocent civilians get killed accidentally. The state of the art has not evolved so that shells or bombs can determine whether a civilian is in the neighborhood of a targeted enemy position.
On the other hand, what kind of people are those that kidnap known non-combatants and gleefully separate their heads from their bodies and televise it to show the world their prowess?
When I first came to Texas, all the elected politicians were Democrats. Hardly any Republicans were even on the ballots. Then gradually, actually faster than one might think, the opinions of the people changed. I don't pretend to know why. I would guess that people realized that although Democrats always promised to take care of the underprivileged, etc..., they were not fulfilling their promises. Now Texas is classified as a Republican state.
I have noticed that some anti-Bush posters, particularly Sr.X, use extremely insulting and inflamatory language. He would make a good propagandist for the enemies of our country. Whether some people realize it or not, we are at war. Not a conventional war as those in the past, but a war nevertheless. Unfortunately, it is true that at times innocent civilians get killed accidentally. The state of the art has not evolved so that shells or bombs can determine whether a civilian is in the neighborhood of a targeted enemy position.
On the other hand, what kind of people are those that kidnap known non-combatants and gleefully separate their heads from their bodies and televise it to show the world their prowess?
-
Bob
- Moderator
- Posts: 1774
- Joined: Mon Feb 24, 2003 3:54 am
- Location: Connecticut and Massachusetts
- asturias_and_me:
Everyone, please focus on the political issues and the politicians, and refrain from accusing one another of hatred, foolishness, etc.
We may find ourselves annoyed when we think what others have said constitutes an insult to a politician we like, but the politicians themselves all seem to do a fine job of insulting one another anyway. What we should avoid is giving intentional insult to our fellow members, and taking personal insult where none is iintended.
Any member should feel free to express any political opinion in this forum. Can we not value one another as friends who share a common heritage even if we have strong political disagreements?
Bob Martinez
We may find ourselves annoyed when we think what others have said constitutes an insult to a politician we like, but the politicians themselves all seem to do a fine job of insulting one another anyway. What we should avoid is giving intentional insult to our fellow members, and taking personal insult where none is iintended.
Any member should feel free to express any political opinion in this forum. Can we not value one another as friends who share a common heritage even if we have strong political disagreements?
Bob Martinez