Asturian-American Migration Forum

As far as I'm concerned, at times, the aim does justify the means. If my freedom or life is at stake, I'd do anything necessary to defend myself. But those that want to be lambs for the wolves can be so.

Yes, removing Spanish troops so precipitously was probably a mistake.

We must be reading very different sources, Bartletrules. I have never read any report that said Al Queda has anything significant going on with Saddam. To the contrary, all evidence I've read about says they were not in Iraq in any way that suggested cooperation.

Also, there were plenty of people who had serious doubts about the claims of WMD. The UN certainly didn't buy the story. And during the build up to war, there were many Americans speaking out saying that they didn't believe it either.

The fact is that WMD wasn't the Bush administration's real reason; it was just the excuse that got a lot of Americans emotionally involved in beating the drums for war. I couldn't imagine at the time what possible reason the administration could have had, except for Bush's desire to avenge a planned attack on his dad. Some said it was for the oil. That didn't make sense to me.

Now it appears that maybe there were some in the administration hoping to change the Middle East by injecting a pro-Western "democracy" in Iraq. I'd have to admit that there is some positive idealism in the idea, but I doubt that Iraqis will ever thank us warmly for our efforts. And isn't the whole point of democracy giving a people the ability to shape their own future? I don't think you can "do" democracy to a group.

Before the war I remember administration officials like Rumsfeld talking about how the man on the street didn't matter. Guess what? It's that man on the street who is blowing up our troops and terrorizing the poor Iraqis--who are another set of men/women too afraid to go out on the street. Ideally, it's all of the little guy and gals whose voices add up to create a democracy. This is a case where the means used make it very hard to reach the supposed aims.

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Sí, quitando las tropas españolas tan precipitadamente era probablemente un error.

Debe ser que leemos periódicos muy diferentes, Bartletrules. Nunca he leído ningún informe que dijo que Al Queda tenía ninguna actividad significativa con Saddam. Al contrario, todas las pruebas he leído sobre este dice que no estaban en Irak de ningún modo que sugirió la cooperación.

También, había mucha gente que tenía dudas serias sobre las afirmaciones de WMD. Las Naciones Unidas seguramente no se tragaron la historia. Y durante el fortalecer hasta la guerra, había muchos Americanos que hablaran claramente que no lo creyeron tampoco.

El hecho es que WMD no era la verdadera razón de la administración de Bush; esto era solamente la excusa que consiguió a muchos Americanos emocionalmente complicados en la paliza de los tambores en apoyo de la guerra. Yo no podía imaginarme en eso tiempo que razón posible la administración podría haber tenido, excepto el deseo de Bush de vengar un ataque planificado sobre su papá. Unos dijeron era para el petróleo. A mi, esto no tuve sentido.

Ahora aparece que tal vez hubieran unos en la administración que espera cambiar el Oriente Medio por inyectando "una democracia" prooccidental en Irak. Yo tendría que admitir que hay algún idealismo positivo en la idea, pero dudo que los iraquíes algun día nos agradezcan calurosamente por nuestros esfuerzos. ¿Y no es el punto entero de democracia para dar a un pueblo la capacidad de formar su propio futuro? No pienso que se puede "hacer" la democracia a un grupo.

Antes de la guerra recuerdo que funcionarios de la administración como Rumsfeld hablaba que el hombre sobre la calle no importó. ¿Sabes qué? Es aquel hombre sobre la calle que explota nuestras tropas y aterroriza a los iraquíes pobrecitos - quien son otro juego de hombres/mujeres con demasiado miedo para salir sobre la calle. Lo ideal sería que todos los pequeños personas añadan sus voces hasta que creen una democracia. Esto es un caso en que los medios usados hacen muy difícil alcanzar los objetivos supuestos.

I should say that although I voted for Bush, it doesn't mean I agree with everything he has done or says. I do think his father missed the opportunity to get rid of Saddam during the Gulf War, when the US had support from most countries. If he had done so, the present situation probably wouldn't exist. I also think Rumsfeld has mismanaged the present Iraqi war from the start. I was hoping he'd resign after the election.
About the reason for invading Iraq, in hindsight (which is always better than foresight), it may have been an overreaction. Even if Iraq had WMD, they probably were of no immediate threat to the US. But actually, depending on the definition of WMD, the Kurds in the north and the Shiites in the south of Iraq probably considered poisonous gas WMD.
I too, don't think that oil was the reason for the Iraq invasion. Although that seems what many people think. We can always buy more oil from other countries if necessary. Maybe it was just the US trying to be the world's policeman, which I think is gaining us more enemies than friends worldwide. More and more, I'm begnning to think that the US should let other countries settle or live with their problems, because the more the US gets involved, the more it is resented.

Lisardo...
What form of government would you suggest ?
A dictatorship ?
A kingdom?
Since we overthrew a tyrant, we almost have to support a form of government that has worked for most countries and we are familiar with.

Lisardo
All I can say is that Spain didn't have the means, so Franco murdered half-a -million other Spaniards.

Mounting Problems Are Not Being Addressed By a "Nuclearized"Congress

"Over 45million persons in our country,some 15 Percent of our population -- cannot afford health insurance. Our infant mortality rate is the second highest of the major industrialized countries of the world. Our deficits are skyrocketing. Poverty in the United States is rising....Our veterans lack adequate medical care after they have risked life and limb for all of us. Our education system produces eighth grader ranked 19th out of 38 countries in the world of math....Yet we debate and seek solutions to none of these critical problems.

From an April 25 speech by Senator Robert Byrd ( D--WV )

Lisardo
I do not agree with you about your US "financial colonialism". True, it was in the past, but sometimes you learn things from history. As I recall, the American taxpayer spent tons of hard-earned money rebuilding countries such as Germany, Japan, many other European countries, and South Korea. Right now we are trying to do the same in Afghanistan and Iraq. It seems to me that some of those countries are doing quite well because of our "financial colonialism". I suspect that Spain wouldn't mind a little more American money being invested in building its industry.
But nevertheless, you are entitled to your opinions.

Incidentally, next time you are in Pola de Laviana, drop by Bar Cholo and say hello to Arturo for me. He's the "chief cook and bottle washer" there, and my grand-nephew.

Sorry, I didn't understand Lisardo's last two messages. (But that photo has a very design!)

Corsino, I think we agree essentially (I'm looking at your next to last post). And you make an interesting point about being the world policeman.

I wonder what would be good alternatives to being a global policemen or to withdrawing from the world stage (isolationism)? It seems to me that we have to learn to work with other countries. This means respecting other peoples and countries, learning about their needs and objectives, and yet also remembering our own needs and objectives. We won't always agree, but if we work at it we'll find lots of common ground and be able to move forward together. What we're doing instead (especially with the Bolton-Rumsfeld types) is alienate and bully. I can't imagine how we will meet any of our needs or objectives like this.

And Ron's quote from Senator Bryd is exactly on target. Anywhere you go in the world, people need health care, education, clean water, food, and shelter. We could be working as equals with other nations on these things. We'd gain respect throughout the world and we'd have more self-respect, too.

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Lo siento, pero no entendí los dos últimos mensajes de Lisardo. ¡(Pero aquella foto tiene un diseño muy fino!)

Corsino, pienso que estamos de acuerdo esencialmente (miro tu mensaje penúltimo). Y haces un punto interesante sobre ser policía mundial.

¿Me pregunto cuáles serían alternativas buenas a ser los policías globales o a la retirar del escenario mundial (el aislacionismo)? Me parece que tenemos que aprender a trabajar con otros países. Esto significa que tenemos que respetar a otros pueblos y países, estudiar sobre sus necesidades y objetivos, y aún también recordar nuestras propias necesidades y objetivos. No siempre estaremos de acuerdo, pero si nos esforzamos, encontraremos muchos puntos en común y seremos capaces de avanzar juntos. Lo que hacemos en cambio (sobre todo con los tipos como Bolton-Rumsfeld) es enajenar y ser el matón. No puedo imaginarme como vamos a satisfacer cualquiera de nuestras necesidades u objetivos así.

Y la cita de Ron del Senador Bryd es exactamente el punto. De todos sitios en el mundo, la gente precisan asistencia médica, educación, agua limpia, alimento, y albergue. Podríamos trabajar como igualas con otras naciones sobre estas cosas. Ganaríamos el respeto en todo el mundo y tendríamos más respeto propio, también.

Art..

You worry me when you say we essentially agree ! (broma).

I do think that Americans are getting tired of being constantly velified, regardless of what they do. Maybe a spell of isolationism wouldn't be so bad after all.
I have read what people have against Americans, and they all seem to have the same criticism (as if they all took the same college course in anti-americanism). They all say America exploits the poor people in other countries. A book could be written on that subject, but it probably would be banned by the rulers of those countries. It is true that American interests invest in developing the resources of other countries. In theory, this should be good, because it should create sorely needed jobs for those people. Also, those American companies pay the governments for those development rights.
But the problem seems to be that no benefits, or very little, trickle down to the poor people. Why not? Maybe the poor people that delight in demonstrating and burning the American flag should look at their own corrupt governments. Of course, they may not have "the means" to do anything about it and still stay alive.

Good point, Corsino. I've been amazed by the many alliances between the US government and dictators: Sukarno, Marcos, Franco, and so many others.

I think the solution is not isolation but a change in the way we interact. Of course, it's not in the American super elite's best interest to change, so our government isn't likely to change voluntarily. One day we'll have the change forced down our throats because some other (Asian?) country will be the world's dominant power and we'll have to figure out how to get along in the world.

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Planteaste una punto muy bueno, Corsino. He estado asombrado por muchas alianzas entre el gobierno de los EE.UU. y los dictadores: Sukarno, Marcos, Franco, y tantos otros.

Pienso que la solución no es el aislamiento, pero un cambio del modo en que actuamos recíprocamente. Desde luego, no está en el mejor interés de la súper élite americana para cambiarse, de manera que nuestro gobierno probablemente no se cambia voluntariamente. Un día obligaremos cambiar porque otro país (¿asiático?) será el poder dominante mundial y tendremos que aprender como sobrevivir en el mundo.

Corsino wrote:Art..

You worry me when you say we essentially agree ! (broma).

I do think that Americans are getting tired of being constantly velified, regardless of what they do. Maybe a spell of isolationism wouldn't be so bad after all.
I have read what people have against Americans, and they all seem to have the same criticism (as if they all took the same college course in anti-americanism). They all say America exploits the poor people in other countries. A book could be written on that subject, but it probably would be banned by the rulers of those countries. It is true that American interests invest in developing the resources of other countries. In theory, this should be good, because it should create sorely needed jobs for those people. Also, those American companies pay the governments for those development rights.
But the problem seems to be that no benefits, or very little, trickle down to the poor people. Why not? Maybe the poor people that delight in demonstrating and burning the American flag should look at their own corrupt governments. Of course, they may not have "the means" to do anything about it and still stay alive.

I think isolationism is not the solution for the US, specially when we talk about economy. For the US to recover its former strength, it's required to do businesses with Europe, Southamerica and Asia.

There's also another reality: all those people (and countries) that constantly criticise the U.S., are not willing to take its place inside the international community. I mean, it's easy for Germany, France or Spain to make fun for all the mistakes the U.S. has made in the past and recent history. "U.S. is evil, U.S. rules the world as if that was really their commitment". This happened with Clinton, too. Bush only got this claim to sound a little louder.

They all criticise the U.S. because they don't like being manipulated for the U.S., and they all will happily take the U.S. position in the world. BUT they (EU, Japan, Russia, China...) don't want to make the effort needed to substitute the U.S. inside the international order. U.N. should dictate the international laws, and it has to be respected overall, doesn't mind what the U.S. decides. Well, then it's time for Europe, Japan, China... to give the U.N. the same amount of money, the same human resources that the U.S. provides. Or maybe U.S. is not so evil when Americans pay the bills for international organizations???

And don't forget the Arab world, too. They always deserve respect for their religion, and have enough money to help spread Islam throughout the world -sometimes helping radical extremists-, but they don't have money to combat poverty? They don't have the same respect for other religions and POV inside their own countries? or do they?

I'm not saying that the U.S. international POVs are perfect, of course. And it's obvious that President Bush made a mistake when he decided to act without consulting any other country during his first term. The only thing I want to remark is that every country (U.S. included) has to take first their own charges, and after that, criticise all the rest. When Arabs respect other beliefs, theirs will be respected and accepted throughout the world. When Europe and the other big countries in the world had put the same money and man power the U.S. provides to the International Community, then it'll be time for the U.S. world leadership to come to an end. And of course, when U.S. learn to accept different points of view, no more anti-americanism will be shown. But EVERY country has things to do, and sometimes in Europe this is forgotten.

Well, I'm not proposing COMPLETE isolationism, but maybe the US should not be so quick to get involved in all the world problems. There is something to be said about "help those that are willing to help themselves". Why always get involved in problems where our help is either going to be misunderstood and unappreciated (even resented)?
I'm not an economist, a politician nor a theologian, but there are inherent problems in the world that are not going to be "fixed" anytime soon.

But I can see that those "poor" countries that depend mostly on plentiful oil exports haven't seen the worst yet. Eventually, the need for their oil may not constantly increase. It is only a matter of time until more oil will be made from corn or other sources, or more cars will run on electricity (batteries) or natural gas.

So some countries better start looking ahead to the future instead of condoning the concept that it's their duty to kill "in the name of Allah".

Well, I'm not sure that the US would "regain its former strength" by doing more business with other countries. Sometimes I think that we are doing too much business with other countries. Our import/export deficit is terrible and is a big drag on our economy. At one time, I had no trouble buying good-quality products made in the U.S. Now, just about everything is "junk" made in China or Southeast Asia. Even when I have a problem with my computer, and call the manufacturer for help, who do I talk to ? Somebody in Pakistan, whom I can barely understand and have to ask them to repeat what they are saying several times.

But the the topic of this board is supposed to about about Spain, so I should say that if we have to import things, I'd much rather that Spain was more industrialized and we'd buy from it. I realize that there are American companies in Spain, but they seem to be trying to SELL to Spain, rather than BUYING from Spain. I don't see anything here with a tag that says "MADE IN SPAIN. It's always "MADE IN CHINA".
Sooner or later whoever is the leader of Spain will realize that changes need to be made in Spain too. It cannot survive forever on tourism. Right now, Asturias is one of the few places in Europe that is LOSING population. Why? Because there are no jobs there. College graduates cannot find work in Asturias, so they leave for Madrid or Barcelona. The Asturian coal mining industry is almost a thing of the past. Buses of American tourists rarely venture to Asturias because most Americans have never heard of Asturias. So maybe Asturias needs to change too.

Those were interesting posts.

Bartletrules, you're right: it's a lot easier to criticize than to do it better. Of, course, some things would have been better left undone, as I see things.

I suspect that we're going to be surprised by some of the consequences of Bush's foreign policy. It's inevitable that some good will come of it and some bad will come of it.

Corsino, it occurred to me a while back that since the Europe is higher than the dollar now, the Spanish may be importing cheap junk from us, rather than the other way around! I used to dream of living in Asturias and doing work by email and phone for American businesses. Now I'd do better to work for Asturian businesses from the US because I may be able to under price their services! How quickly things change.

I had a conversation with several Indian customer service workers this past week. To my surprise, the quality of their English and their ability to solve the problems were impressive. It looks to me as though they're already solid competition for us here.

Corsino wrote: "There are inherent problems in the world that are not going to be "fixed" anytime soon." Boy, is that true. As a youthful idealist I wouldn't have accepted that. But it's true.

So I keep wondering what kinds actions can we take now that will be effective in making the world a better place for all of us? My gut reaction (it's not something I've studied in detail) is that we'll all be safer and healthier if we promote--for everyone--health care, modest economic well-being, a safe environment, and self-determination. Sure, that's huge, isn't it?

Moving forward toward these goals, even in small steps, is good. But we'll never eliminate suffering and poverty. At the very least, human stupidity and criminality will ensure that!

My point is simply that any time we promote any of these for others, we're making our own lives better. Oddly enough, the greater good is also in our long-term self-interest.

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Son postes interesantes, amigos.

Bartletrules, tienes razón: es mucho más fácil criticar que hacerlo mejor. Des luego, habrían sido mejor dejar algunas cosas deshechas, a mi juicio.

Sospecho que sorprendremos algunas consecuencias de la política exterior de Bush. Es inevitable que salga algún bueno de ella y que algún mal salga de ella también.

¡Corsino, me ocurrió hace un rato que ya que el euro está más alta que el dólar, los españoles pueden importar productos chatarra y barata de nosotros, más bien que al reverso! Tenía yo el sueño de vivir en Asturias y trabajar por correo electrónico y teléfono para negocios americanos. ¡Ahora haría mejor trabajar para negocios asturianos de los EE.UU. porque puedo ofrecer precios más bajos para mis servicios! Qué rápidamente cambian las cosas.

En la semana pasada, tuve tres conversaciones sobre computadores con varios trabajadores indios de servicio de atención al cliente. A mi sorpresa, la calidad de su inglés y su capacidad de solucionar los problemas era impresionante. Me parece que ya presentan una competición sólida para nosotros aquí.

Corsino escribió: "Hay problemas inherentes en el mundo que no van a ser "arreglados" en cualquier momento pronto." Vaya, esto es la verdad. Como un joven idealista yo no habría aceptado esto. Pero es verdadero.

Entonces sigo preguntarme: ¿Qué clases de acciones podemos tomar ahora que será eficaz en la creación de un mundo mejor para todos nosotros? Mi reacción visceral (no es algo que he estudiado detalladamente) es que seremos todos más seguros y más sanos si promovemos--para cada uno--la asistencia médica, el bienestar modesto económico, un ambiente sano, y la autodeterminación. Seguramente esto es enorme, ¿no?

El avanzar hacia estos objetivos, aún en pequeños pasos, es muy bien. Pero nunca eliminaremos el sufrimiento y la pobreza. ¡Al menos, la estupidez y la criminalidad humana lo asegurarán!

Mi punto es simplemente que siempre que promovemos cualquiera de estos para otros, mejoramos también las vidas nuestras mismos. Es una curiosidad que el bienestar de todos es también en nuestro interés propio a largo plazo.

Corsino wrote: But the the topic of this board is supposed to about about Spain, so I should say that if we have to import things, I'd much rather that Spain was more industrialized and we'd buy from it. I realize that there are American companies in Spain, but they seem to be trying to SELL to Spain, rather than BUYING from Spain. I don't see anything here with a tag that says "MADE IN SPAIN. It's always "MADE IN CHINA".
Sooner or later whoever is the leader of Spain will realize that changes need to be made in Spain too. It cannot survive forever on tourism. Right now, Asturias is one of the few places in Europe that is LOSING population. Why? Because there are no jobs there. College graduates cannot find work in Asturias, so they leave for Madrid or Barcelona. The Asturian coal mining industry is almost a thing of the past. Buses of American tourists rarely venture to Asturias because most Americans have never heard of Asturias. So maybe Asturias needs to change too.

Corsino, you don't know how accurate you've been. Spain's future has two big goals to achieve:

1st.- This nation has ONLY two big business: tourism and housing. There's no new technology being developed from our industries, and that has to become our future, since asian workers (korean, chinese, indian) are cheaper than ours, we're not gonna be able to sell cheap junk to anybody. And someday soon, tourists will find another places, more exotic or cheaper, perhaps. I mean, both U.S. and Spain have many nice monuments to show, but the biggest part of our business is based on cheap hotels and menus, beaches and sun. And there are so many places in the world that can offer all these things, aren`t they?

2nd.- We have to create jobs for engineering, computer industry, internet and mobile communications systems... I'm sure Spain will never be like Silicon Valley or Tokyo, but there's a great world market for all that stuff, and THAT'S our future, I think. Troubles begin when our politicians (no difference here between left or right parties) have to start working HARD to set the proper conditions for the country to establish this kind of business.

And Asturias has the biggest challenge. Coal mines, shipyards... That's all ended. It's a matter of time, maybe some years but there's no future there.

Asturias is the best place to live (at least, here in Spain), I've been to Galicia, Madrid, Barcelona and other places from southern and central Spain, and I'm sure. But while Art's desires become true (working here for an American -or European- business by internet or phone... mmmm... what a dream!!!), Asturias will continue to loose its young population -its future- until our national, local governments and our entrepreneurs decide to work together and make the change happen.