Asturian-American Migration Forum

Ultimamente se habla mucho del "bullying" en la prensa, como si fuera un fenómeno nuevo y nunca visto - de ahí que utilicen un término inglés - y quisiera saber qué pensáis del tema.
Siempre hubo acosadores y chavales agresivos, pero por qué ahora se suicidan las víctimas? ¿Será que hay mucho hijo único críado entre algodones? ¿Les falta el "primo zumosol" que les defienda? ¿La falta total de autoridad de los maestros y profesores?
¿O es simplemente otra histeria informativa como lo de las vacas locas?
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There has been a lot of talk about school mobbings in the press lately, as if it were a new phenomenon and something unheard of until now - hence the English term "bullying" - and I wonder what you all think about it.
There have always been bullies and aggressive teenagers, but why do their victims commit suicide now? Are there too many "only children" brought up like sissies? Is it the lack of other siblings or coousins to protect them? Is it the total loss of authority on the part of the teachers? Or is it another media hype like the one about mad-cow disease?

Terechu......You've set the stage for an interesting discussion.

Many explanations are possible, including the fact that perhaps, because of vastly improved rapid communication systems, these events are simply more reported now than in the past , but in fact are not really occurring with more frequency (an analagous situation is with the perceived incidence of serial murder...many experts have claimed that through-out history there have always been serial/mass murderers, but the common perception is that it is a phenomenon of modern, industrialized societies).

Another explanation could be that if, in fact, this phenomenon (the suicides, not the bullying itself) is something new it might be due to a general sense of alienation and loneliness that many children today seem to feel. Perhaps too much time in cyberspace (as I sit here typing this on my computer) and not enough time with family and friends. I pride myself on being very open-minded and "liberal", however I am very traditional when it comes to family and education.

Anyway....who knows the answer???....but thanks for raising the issue...very good food for thought!!!!
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Trad. Terechu

Terechu....has propuesto un tema de dicusión interesante.

Hay muchas explicaciones posibles, quizás incluyendo el hecho de que, debido al muy mejorado y rápido sistema de comunicaciones, estos hechos tienen más divulgación ahora que en el pasado, aunque en realidad no se estén produciendo con más frecuencia (se da un caso análogo con la percepción de la incidencia de asesinatos en serie... muchos expertos han afirmado que siempre se han dado casos de asesinos en serie, pero la percepción general es que se trata de un fenómeno nuevo de las sociedades modernas, industrializadas.

Otra explicación podría ser que si este fenómeno (los suicidios, no el acoso en sí) son algo nuevo, podría deberse a un sentimiento general de enajenación social y de soledad que muchos niños de hoy parecen padecer.
A lo mejor demasiado tiempo en el ciberespacio (yo, aquí tecleando en mi ordenador) y demasiado poco tiempo con la familia y los amigos. Me considero una persona de mente abierta y "liberal", sin embargo soy muy tradicional en cuanto a la familia y la educación.

De todos modos...¿quién tiene la respuesta? .... gracias de todos modos por sacar el tema.... da mucho que pensar.

I think Tony may have the answer.

El Tampeno wrote:Another explanation could be that if, in fact, this phenomenon (the suicides, not the bullying itself) is something new it might be due to a general sense of alienation and loneliness that many children today seem to feel.

I have been exchanging emails with a man who was living in Paris and Vienna but recently moved to the Dominican Republic. His main complaint was that in the First World we're all moving too fast to relate to each other in the ways that we used to. In the Third World he says he can still have a relationship with his neighbors, the store clerks, etc.

This makes sense to me. One of the things I really enjoyed about my visits to Asturias was that people in the shops were often very open to me, taking time for personal conversation--much more so than I experience here in the US.

I have lots of stories that illustrate this, but I'll tell just one. One afternoon I was sitting on a bench waiting for my cousin to do some business in a bank. The woman next to me started talking to me. We spoke for a while. When my cousin came out, she asked me if I knew who I was talking to. "No." It was the wife of another cousin! She hadn't realized that we were related, either.

My point is that those little social interactions make you feel connected and worthwhile. If Asturias goes the way of the big First World cities, that will be a huge loss. I suspect that this is inevitable.

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Pienso que Tony puede tener la respuesta.

El Tampeno translated by Art wrote:Otra explicación podría ser que si este fenómeno (los suicidios, no la intimidación sí mismo) es, de hecho, algo nuevo, podría ser debido a un sentido general de enajenación y soledad que muchos niños hoy parecen sentir.

He estado en diálogo por correo electrónico con un hombre que vivía en París y Viena, pero recientemente trasladó a la República Dominicana. Su queja principal era que en el Primer Mundo nos movemos todos demasiado rápido para relacionar el uno con el otro en los caminos como hacíamos antes. En el Tercero Mundol dice que todavía puede tener relaciones con sus vecinos, los empleados de las tiendas, etc.

Por mí, tiene sentido. Una de las cosas de las que realmente disfruté de mis visitas a Asturias era que la gente en las tiendas eran a menudo muy abiertos conmigo, aprovechando la oportunidad para la conversación personal--mucho más que experimento aquí en los EE.UU.

Tengo muchas historias que ilustran esto, pero contaré solamente una. Una tarde me sentaba sobre un banco mientras esperé a mi primo quien estaba haciendo algún negocio en el banco. La mujer al lado de mí comenzó a dirigirse a mí. Hablamos un rato. Cuando mi primo salió, ella me preguntó si yo conociera a quién me dirigía. "No". ¡Era la esposa de otro primo! La mujer tampoco había comprendido que fuimos relacionados.

Mi punto es que aquellas pequeñas interacciones sociales hacen sentirnos conectados y que vale la pena. Si Asturias va el camino de las ciudades grandes del Mundo Primero, será una enorme pérdida. Sospecho que es inevitable.

Art,

I share your sentiments completely, especially about how sad it will be when our ancestral homeland joins in on this frenzied rat-race. On the other hand, I sometimes feel that our desire to see other parts of the world remain "quaint and traditional" borders on the condescending because along with a "2nd or 3rd world" life often goes higher rates of disease, poverty and in general a very difficult day-to-day life. (I'm speaking in generalities, not specifically about Spain).

Where does the balance lie?? My approach is that our "1st world" environment is very much like a "buffet" of options...one should be very selective of what one chooses, so as not to overindulge in vulgar excesses. This is along the lines of the "Think Globally, Act Locally" philosophy......always be sensitive to those persons and things closest to you.

Gee, this is the best "B_ _ _ S _ _ _" session since my dorm days at the
Univ. of Florida!!!!!

Thanks for listening,
Tony

PS...I haven't forgotten about the "Habana" tapes...want to edit-out the PBS fund-raising commercials...for your viewing pleasure. Will get to it soon.
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Trad. Terechu

Comparto tus sentimientos completamente, especialmente sobre lo triste que será que nuestra tierra se apunte a esa carrera de ratas frenética. Por otra parte, creo que nuestro deseo de ver otras partes del mundo que siguen siendo "singulares y tradicionales" raya en lo condescendiente, porque la vida del "segundo o tercer mundo" a menudo lleva parejo un mayor índice de enfermedades, probeza y en general una vida muy dura en el día a día (estoy hablando en términos generales y no específicamente sobre España).

Dónde está el equilibrio? Para mí nuestro entorno de "primer mundo" es muy parecido a un bufé libre de opciones .... deberíamos de ser muy selectivos a la hora de elegir, para no caer en excesos vulgares. Esto sería como la filosofía de "Pensar global, actuar local"... tener siempre en cuenta las personas y cosas más próximas a uno mismo.

Vaya, esta es la mejor sesión de chorradas desde las de la residencia de estudiantes en mis días en la Uni de Florida!!!
Gracias por escuchar!
Tony

PD. No se me han olvidado las cintas de La Habana .... sólo quiero borrar los anuncios para recaudar fondos de la PBS (TV pública) ... para su disfrute visual. Me pondré con ello pronto.

That's a very good point, Tony.

El Tampeno wrote:I share your sentiments completely, especially about how sad it will be when our ancestral homeland joins in on this frenzied rat-race. On the other hand, I sometimes feel that our desire to see other parts of the world remain "quaint and traditional" borders on the condescending because along with a "2nd or 3rd world" life often goes higher rates of disease, poverty and in general a very difficult day-to-day life. (I'm speaking in generalities, not specifically about Spain).

My concern is that there are many aspects to the First World rat race that are not healthy. The teen suicides may be a good example (if they have really increased). Most of my Asturian great uncles and aunts lived to be quite old--and were robust nearly until the end. In contrast, my Asturian-American uncles died fairly young. Interestingly, my Asturian-American aunts are strong and quite sharp, and all but one are still alive.

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Tienes razón, Tony.

El Tampeno wrote:Comparto tus sentimientos completamente, sobre todo sobre como triste será cuando nuestra patria hereditaria participa en esta carrera de ratas frenéticas. De otra parte, a veces siento que nuestro deseo de ver otras partes del mundo permanece "pintoresco y tradicional" linda con el condescendiente porque "con una vida del 2o o 3r mundo" a menudo traga los índices más altas de enfermedad, pobreza y en general una vida cotidiana muy difícil. (Hablo en generalidades, no expresamente sobre España).

Mi preocupación es que hay muchos aspectos de la carrera de ratas del Mundo Primero que no son sanos. Los suicidios de adolescente pueden ser un ejemplo bueno (si realmente han aumentado). La mayor parte de mis tíos abuelos asturianos y tías abuelas vivieron ser bastante viejos--y eran robustos casi hasta el final. Al contrario mis tíos astur-americanos murieron bastante jóvenes. De modo interesante, mis tías astur-americanas son fuertes y bastante agudas, y todos excepto una están vivas todavía.

The two teenagers who committed suicide recently - something unheard of in Spain until now - were being bullied for quite a while.

When I think of my own upbringing, I find so many differences it would be impossible to number them all, but the most significant were probably these:

- I had an older brother who would warn other kids not to "mess with his little sister".
- There was only TV channel, no Play Stations and no computers. I was an outdoor child, learning to fight my own battles from the start. In fact one of the most repeated sentences we all heard at home was "If you come in crying because somebody hit you, you're gonna get it!"
- I went to all-girl schools, so competition over boys was non-existent.
- Even in High School we had to stand up when the teacher walked into the classroom. Teachers had authority and we had a hell of a respect for our teachers.
- We were severely criticized and reprimanded at home for the slightest misbehaviour. Now you see kids playing ball at restaurant terraces, agrravating everybody, while their dorky parents finish eating.

I believe we are raising a generation of kids unfit for the harsh reality of life.


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Los dos adolescentes que recientemente se suicidaron - algo inaudito hasta ahora en España - llevaban tiempo sufriendo acoso escolar.

Cuando pienso en cómo me crié yo, veo tantas diferencias que sería imposible enumerarlas todas, pero las más significantes probablemente serían las siguientes:

- Tenía un hermano mayor que amenazaba a los demás niños para que no se metieran con su hermana pequeña.
- Sólo había un canal de TV, no había ordenadores, ni Play Station ni hostias. Estábamos todo el día en la calle, aprendiendo a librar nuestras propias batallas desde pequeños. De hecho una de las frases que más nos repetían en casa era: "Si vienes llorando porque te pegaron, llévesles encima."
- Las escuelas no eran mixtas y no se competía por los chicos/chicas.
- Hasta en el bachillerato nos teníamos que levantar cuando el/la profe entraba en clase. La autoridad de los profesores era absoluta y todo el mundo les tenía respeto.
- En casa se nos reprendía y criticaba por la más mínima mala conducta.
Ahora se consiente hasta que los niños jueguen al balón en la terraza de los restaurantes, dando el coñazo a todos los presentes, mientras los garrulos de sus padres terminan de comer.

Creo que estamos criando a una generación de chavales no aptos para la dura realidad de la vida.

Terechu,

Your personal experiences remind me of how lucky we were in our Asturiano-American enclaves here in Tampa. We were raised in a very similar atmosphere; in many ways the focus of our families were our Asturiano grandparents who were wonderful at doling out "tough love"
and preparing us for the realities of life, all this with a wonderful sense of human dignity and fairness for all. When I was a child the schools in Tampa were "neighborhood" schools, in the sense that one attended public schools based on where one lived. Since the immigrants were clustered in 2 major areas of the city the end result was we had several schools where the vast majority of the kids were children/grandchildren of Asturianos and Gallegos (the number of Fernandez's, Garcia's, Hevia's etc outnumbered the Smith's). It is with pride that our school officials often noted that in many ways we were the "best kids in Tampa"...the most respectful to our teachers, fewest discipline problems, and highly-motivated to achieve success. This I attribute to our strong family fabric.

Damn, I am so proud of my Asturiano heritage!!!!!!!!!

You know, we Americans are "bumper-sticker" crazy...so far I have resisted (except for my Kerry-Edwards sticker). However, I think I will create a bumper-sticker that says........"Southerner by Birth, Asturiano by the Grace of God"!!!

ps....when are you going to translate my initial response to this topic???
I hope you're not getting lazy on us!!!! All kidding aside, I am so impressed with your bi-lingual abilities. I think it's time to formally study Spanish to "tie up the loose ends"!!!!

Thanks, Terechu

Tony and everybody:
I'll try to do some more translating tomorrow evening.
The truth is, I've been very busy because we have become GRANDPARENTS! I was almost all month in Alicante, where our daughter and husband are currently living and just got back this week.

Our daughter, has given birth to a strapping little baby boy on May 17th and we are just falling all over ourselves trying to help (and mostly getting in the way... ). His name is Millán and if I may say so, he's as cute as a button.

It's a shame they're so far away...but ... so now I'm back on duty

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Tony y todos:
Voy a intentar traducir algo más mañana por la tarde.
La verdad es que he estado muy ocupada porque somos GÜELOS!
Estuve casi todo el mes en Alicante, donde actualmente viven mi hija y su marido y acabamos de llegar esta semana.

Nuestra hija dió a luz a un hermoso niño el 17 de mayo y estuvimos matándonos todos intentando echar una mano (y mayormente metiendo la pata y estorbando... ). Se llama Millán y, aunque esté mal que yo lo diga, ye riquísimu!

La pena es que esté tan lejos...en fin ...ya estoy otra vez al pie del cañón.

Un besu a todos
Terechu

Congrats, Terechu! I've seen a photo and he is a cutie.

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¡Enhorabuena, Terechu! He visto una foto y es muy monada.

(Se dice "monada" o "ricura" para un macho?)

Terechu,

Congratulations and best wishes to you and all of your family.

May your grandson have a long, happy and healthy life!

I will toast the happy event with a shot of "Anis del Mono"..(our favorite here in Tampa).

Thanks again for all of your hard work and dedication to this forum.

Regards,
Tony

Terechu,

Congratulations on the birth of your Grandson.

I don't think there is anything on earth more exiting than being a Grandparent.

Enjoy its such a blessing!

Barbara Alonso Novellino

Thanks, everybody! As those of you who are already grandparents (Barbara, Bob, etc.) know, the bad part about grandchildren as that we don't have them first!

Lisardo, I'll make sure he gets home made baby food, though some manufactured baby food will be unavoidable. In fact, my daughter (his mother) first spoon-fed meal was a Maizena and banana mush but she also ate a lot of Gerber's strained vegetables.

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Gracias a todos! Los que ya soys güelos (Barbara, Bob, etc) ya sabéis que la pena es no poder tener antes a los nietos

Lisardo, ya procuraré que le den papillas caseras, aunque va a ser inevitable algún que otro potito. De hecho la primer papilla que comió mi hija (su madre) fue de maizena y platano, pero también comió muchos potitos de puré de verduras de Gerber's.

Yes, but the good part is that we have them, and we can love them without the burden of day to day parental responsibilities. Our granddaughters stay with us for one or two "overnights" a week, and they never want to go home. But what's not to love about staying with grandparents--two adults, two kids, total concentration on the kids, and no day to day responsibilities that cannot easily be postponed? The usual household chores can always wait.

Our granddaughters ate very little commercial baby food (I didn't know Gerbers had invaded Spain), but they will eat just about anything that is presented to them as something that adults enjoy. Just two months or so ago, Zoe (who is now not quite 3), saw me opening a package of Korean cured squid. Her comment, before tasting it, was "Oh Papa, I LIKE that.... What is it?" She ended up eating half of it, and insisted that I give her most of the tentacles.

Bob

Bob wrote:Just two months or so ago, Zoe (who is now not quite 3), saw me opening a package of Korean cured squid. Her comment, before tasting it, was "Oh Papa, I LIKE that.... What is it?" She ended up eating half of it, and insisted that I give her most of the tentacles.

Oh, Bob, poor Zoe is going to be a bizarro on account of you! Funny story!

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Bob wrote:Hace dos y pico meses, Zoe (quien ahora tiene casi 3 años), me vio abrir un paquete de programas de calamares curados coreanos. Su comentario, antes de degustarlo, era "Ah, Papá, me GUSTA eso.... ¿Qué es esto?" Ella terminó comiendo la mitad de ello, e insistió que yo la dé la mayor parte de los tentáculos.

¡Ah, Bob, Zoe, la pobrecita, va a ser una chiflada debido a ti! ¡Qué historia tan graciosa!

No Bob, actually I don't think Gerber's has been able to penetrate the European market, the Swiss giants (Nestlé, Hero, Sandoz, etc.) are hogging the baby food sector.
I used to buy my daughter's baby food at the Commissary (I was once an Army wife)

Art, you are losing your fishmonger genes!
I can fully understand Zoe's liking squid and preferring the funny-looking tentacles. I used to think they were play-food when I was a kid and to me squid is one of the best tasting things on Earth. You should try some.

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No Bob, no creo que Gerber's haya podido penetrar en el mercado europeo, los gigantes suizos (Nestlé, Hero, Sandoz, etc.) se han hecho con todo el sector de alimentación infantil.
Yo compraba los potitos de mi hija en el economato de la base (en aquella época era esposa de militar).

Art, estás perdiendo tus genes de pescaderu!
Entiendo perfectamente que a Zoe le gusten los calamares y más aún los tentáculos. Yo pensaban que eran comida de juguete cuando era pequeña y además los calamares son de las cosas que más me gustan en el mundo. Deberías probarlos.