Asturian-American Migration Forum

Aunque soy un lurker ocasional en el grupo desde hace algun tiempo casi nunca 'post' ya que poco tengo con que contribuir. En mis investigaciones genealogicas estoy usando ADN para saber si la persona que estoy investigando es un pariente o simplemente una persona con la que comparto el apellido pero no hay parentesco entre nosotros. Usando este metodo he podido decifrar cuales ramas de la familia estan emparentadas y ayuda a buscar el ancestro comun.

Ya que estoy visitando este sitio hoy, aunque dudo que halla alguien con el que comparta el apellido aca, me pregunto si hay otras personas oriundas de Asturias que tambien esten usando este metodo para reforzar sus estudios genealogicos. Si es asi, si quicieran intercambiar informacion y poder comparar datos aunque no compatamos el apellido.

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Although I've been an occasional lurker for a while now, seldom if ever do I post here. One of my hobbies is genealogy and to aid in my research I'm currently using DNA testing, this allows me to know beforehand if the people I would be researching are relatives or simply people with whom I share the surname but not a biological relationship.

Since I'm here now and have just left a DNA board it occurs to me that maybe there are some folks out there doing the same thing here. If you are would you be interested in exchanging information and comparing notes even though we may not share the surname? I guess the question is would you be interested in joining a geographical surname project for Asturias?

Thanx

Eli

Welcome, Eli!

Could you tell us more about this process, what's involved, what it costs, etc?

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¡Bienvenido, Eli!

¿Puedes decirnos más sobre el proceso, de qué tenemos que hacer, de cuánto cuesta, etc.?

Hi Art, thankyou!

Sure will, unlike all other chromosomes the Y-DNA chromosome is passed from father to son without mixing with the chromosomes of the mother, simple enough females don’t have the Y chromosome they have XX. However over time (many generations) mistakes occur in the copying of one chromosome and that mistake is later repeated on that child/man when he passes it on to his children. We know these mistakes as mutations at certain markers in the chromosome, what they do is count these mutations and if you have certain mutations you belong to certain group of people, the more mutations you match with another person the closer you are genetically speaking.

These mutations happen approximately one every 600-700 years, so in order to be considered ‘related’ to somebody else that matches your mutations you should match in 41 out of 43 markers, if you only match 40 out of 43 you would think this person is somewhat close but not member of your surname because the two of you would find a common ancestor around 1,800 years ago. That would put him before the creation of most surnames. So when the paper trail runs cold or you think there is a connection before you spend the next 20 years breaking your back on old parish registers you can simply take the test and know if there is a relationship or not, if there is one then you can go ahead and do your thing, if not well hey saved yourself a lot of aggravation!

You can find more info (basic) at http://www.dnaheritage.com/ydna.asp and if interested read the tutorials on the left. For a little more in depth but still easy to read info on the subject http://www.familytreedna.com/dna101.html these two companies offer the same thing one sells you a can of tuna with a fancy label for 2 bucks the other sell the same thing at half price without much fanfare... I use the one and read the other... There are more in-depth boards like the rootsweb forum but that is way to technical for most, so most should skip it for a while http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/G ... NA/2005-12 I am sure you have heard of the Genographic project https://www5.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/ (needs a flash enabled browser) click explore the atlas on the right, they are following mayor population movements, same thing only ‘geneatology’ (genealogy + anthropology = geneatology) is much more detailed, they use 12 markers we use up to 43.

So the idea was if anybody around here is already doing this for genealogy purposes then lets compare notes, there are tons of geographical boards but most are German, British and Irish. Haven’t seen one for northern Spain yet. I wouldn’t recommend doing it just for this though... lol
Oh.. The price varies depending on how many markers and what company one uses, the rage is from $99 to 540 bucks more or less.

Elí

Hola Art, gracias!

Con gusto, el cromosoma Y-ADN se pasa de padre a hijo sin mesclarse con los cromosomas de la madre, las mujeres no tiene ese cromosoma, ellas cargan el XX. Asi que el hijo tiene exactamente el mismo cromosoma que el padre, sin embargo con el paso del tiempo al copiarse de una generacion a la otra errores ocurren y esos errores luego son repetidos en los decendientes de la persona donde originalmente hubo un error. Estos errores los llaman mutaciones, mutaciones que encontramos en ciertas partes del cromosoma e indentifican a las personas como miembros de un grupo grande Haplogrupo y lo mismos se puede usar para identificar a la gente como miembros de cierta familia, como parientes el uno del otro, ya que todos cargan los mismos ‘errores’ (mutaciones). Mientras mas mutaciones tu y alguna otra persona tengan en comun mas cercana sera el parentesco y viceversa porsupuesto.

Las mutaciones ocurren aproximadamente cada 600/700 años, asi que para que uno se pueda considerar pariente de otra persona debe tener menos de dos mutaciones de diferencia, ya que si tienes tres o mas eso diria que por lo menos han pasado unos 1,800 años de cuando tu y esa otra persona comparten un ancestro en comun, y la mayoria de los apellidos comenzaron despues de eso (en España existen apellidos mas antiguos pero esto es una generalisacion). Asi que si crees que estas emparentado con alguien antes de gastar 20 años en investigaciones tradicionales puedes hacer un simple examen de ADNN y saber si existe un parentesco o no, de esa manera te ahorras un monton a agravios.... imaginate es como saber como va a terminar el divorcio antes de casarte!

Pudes encontrar mas informacion al respecto en
1 http://www.dnaheritage.com/ydna.asp
2 http://www.familytreedna.com/dna101.html
3 http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/G ... NA/2005-12 De simple a mas complicado y tecnico, la ultima es demasiado tecnica para la mayoria asi que no la recomiendo sino hasta que los otros dos ya no te sean suficientes. Ten en cuenta que esos tres sites estan en ingles. Si te interesa la informacion al respecto en Castellano pon un mensage y tengo la mayor parte de los dos primeros traducidos (la esencia de lo que dicen) para un trabajo personal asi que lo puedo poner aca. El costo varia de $99 a 540 duros, dependiendo de que compañia uses y que programa solicites, no hay gran diferencia entre una compañia y la otra. Basicamente uno te vende lo que necesitas saber y te deja a ti a que averigues el resto la otra te sirve toda la informacion en una bandeja de plata.

La idea era averiguar si alguien aca ya esta haciendo esto para sus investigaciones genealogicas, si es asi entonces el compartir datos podria ser interesante. Algo asi como un ‘board’ geografico, existen muchos de esos pero la mayoria estan dedicados a Alemania, Inglaterra, Irlanda y EE.UU. Que yo sepa no hay ninguno dedicado a Cantabria.

no se si la imagen va a trabajar.... Nope, como se pone una imagen aca?

Elí

That's interesting, Eli. Thanks for the info you've provided.

It looks like if my Asturian roots are through my mother and not my father, my Y-chromosome won't show any Asturian heritage. Am I interpreting this correctly?

I wonder if there are tests that show relatedness to all the family trees we're part of--say 2, 3, or 4 generations back. That would be 4, 8, or 16 family trees. I'm guessing that would be pretty complex!

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Esto es interesante, Eli. Gracias por la información que has proveído.

Si mis raíces asturianas son por la parte de mi madre y no de mi padre, me parece que mi Y-cromosoma no mostrará ninguna herencia asturiana. ¿Interpreto esto correctamente?

Me pregunto si hay pruebas que muestran relaciones con todos los árboles genealógicos que tenemos en las 2, 3, o 4 generaciones atrás. Sería 4, 8, o 16 árboles genealógicos. ¡Adivino que sería complejísimo!

Hi Eli,
Although this is an interesting approach, it is also a very ineffective one, considering that until the invention of the birth control pill unwanted children were almost impossible to avoid unwanted pregnancies and have an abortion. Hence many women had children out of wedlock,who did not bear their father's name. In addition, the Laws imposed on all children born to a married couple - regardless who the real father was - the surname of their mother's husband at that time. Then there were "the priest's children", the "master's children", etc. It is estimated that less than 50% of the population bore their genuine paternal surnames.
In the case of Spain , however, the situation is a bit differint, owing to the dual surname system, whereby you don't lose your mother's surname, whose origin is much more reliable.
In other words, by linking DNA evidence to male surnames you are leaving out about 50% of your paternal blood relatives. Maybe even more...Bob will know how to explain that much better.
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Aunque sea un planteamiento interesante, también es bastante ineficaz, si se tiene en cuenta que antes de la píldora anticonceptiva era casi imposible evitar embarazos no deseados y abortar. Por tanto muchas mujeres tenían hijos de solteras que no llevaban el apellido del padre. Además, los niños nacidos dentro del matrimonio - fuera quien fuera su padre verdadero - llevaban obligatoriamente el apellido del que en ese momento fuera marido de su madre. También estaban "los hijos del cura", los "hijos del señorito", etc. Se calcula que menos del 50% de la población llevaba (y por tanto seguirá llevando) sus apellidos paternos genuinos.
En el caso de ESpaña, no obstante, la situación es un poco diferente, ya que aquí no pierdes el apellido materno, cuyo origen es mucho más fiable.
Hablando en plata, al vincular los apellidos paternos con pruebas de ADN lo que consigues es descartar a un 50% de tus parientes por vía paterna, o incluso más... Bob sabe explicarlo mucho mejor.

Hi Art,

Yup you are right, in this case a Y-DNA test wouldn’t work for you. Plus it would not show whether you have Asturian roots or not in Spain there is just about every haplotype in the world. Remember during the last Ice Age Iberia had Grandpa R1b’s descendants there, then some moved out and colonized Europe, only to later come back in the form of Romans, Germanic tribes and later Moors [Art added Eli's edit: "and later even Moors the descendants of Grandpa's R1b cousin Mr. J2"].

You could test for mt-DNA but that follows the women passed from mother to daughter (and son although the son does not pass it any further), so that would change the surname you are looking at with every generation. The beauty of the Y-DNA test is that it follows the same structure we use for paternal surnames.

“I wonder if there are tests that show relatedness to all the family trees we're part of--say 2, 3, or 4 generations back. That would be 4, 8, or 16 family trees. I'm guessing that would be pretty complex” funny you’d say that, in fact there is a test/study (not available commercially) that is doing exactly that. It takes megabucks to finance the operation and it is private, you can contribute to it but you will get no individual results back (of course you could cheat a little bit so that in time you could pinpoint whom in there are you, like say your ggg-grandfather was born in a misspelled town -just enough so that you could pick up on the error but not so bad that people wont recognize it, say instead of Santander something like Samtamder) you’d just have the satisfaction of knowing you helped..... http://smgf.org/about_smgf.html Their work is extremely interesting http://smgf.org/using_the_database.html through them I’ve found I have relatives in Brazil, US, Ireland, Germany even Spain! Ha! Relatives being people with whom I share a common ancestor about 8-16 generations ago. The funny thing is most of these ‘common ancestors’ just happened to be around the time of Spain’s heyday so I’m thinking they got around while they could...

Eli

Hi Terechu,

Yes you are absolutely right, what this approach may do is save you a lot of useless work, it will not do the work for you. In other words it will prove whether there is a relationship or not before you spend a lot of time doing traditional research. If women bore children out of wedlock and these people don’t share your surname you would never think to try and find a common ancestor anyways. It could by chance show that some of those that you spoke of ‘priest children’ “master’s children” are in fact related to you although there is no documentation to prove that, and it is in areas like these that a geographical project could prove handy. For instance, long before there were laws regulating surnames and how they are passed down, people could ‘choose’ their surname. If John Doe and Susy Q had Jack for a son, he could choose to be Jack Doe Q or Jack Q Doe, he could combine the surnames or drop one of them, it was up to him really. So there are in fact many people with whom we are related via our paternal line and we wouldn’t know it by doing traditional genealogy, once more Y-DNA comes in to ‘fill in the gaps’.

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Hola Art,

Tienes razon en este sentido el examen del ADN-Y no trabajaria en la forma en la que piensas. Ademas no nos diria si tienes raices Austrianas o no, España tiene casi todos los haplotipos que existen en el mundo. Hay que tener en cuenta que los decendientes de el abuelo R1b (el ancestro de quien la mitad de Europa deciende) se refugiaron en Iberia durante la ultima edad de Hielo. Despues algunos de dispersaron y colonizaron el resto de Europa, luego los decendientes de estos regresaron a Iberia en la forma de los invasores Romanos, las tribus Germanicas y mas tarde los Moros. [Art puso la corección de Elí: 'y mas tarde los moros decendientes del Sr. J2, primo del abuelo R1b']

Podrias hacer un ADN-mt pero eso sigue la linea materna, asi que cambiaria de apellido con cada generacion. La belleza del examen ADN-Y es que sigue el mismo diseño que la estructura que usamos para pasar los apellidos paternos; de padre a hijo.

“Me pregunto si hay pruebas que muestran relaciones con todos los árboles genealógicos que tenemos en las 2, 3, o 4 generaciones atrás. Sería 4, 8, o 16 árboles genealógicos. ¡Adivino que sería complejísimo! ” Curioso que lo menciones, hay un estudio que esta haciendo eso exactamente. Pero como no se trata de investigar un solo cromosoma sino todos los 46 cromosomas hay que hacer muchos mas examenes, asi que costaria una fortuna. Afortuanadamente hay una organizacion que esta pagando por eso precisamente . http://smgf.org/about_smgf.html Te puedes unir al proyecto en http://smgf.org/using_the_database.html chequeando mis resultados (solo en el ADN-Y) contra los que tienen en su base de datos he encontrado que comparto un ancestro comun con personas de EE.UU. a España! Solo cuento como parientes aquellos con los que comparto por lo menos 41 de 43 marcadores. Lo curioso es que la gran mayoria de las personas con las que comparto estos marcadores y yo encontramos un ancestro comun en la era del apogeo Español, se me ocurre que vivian la gran vida mientras les durara...

Elí

Hola Terechu,

Tienes toda la razaon, el usar este examen te puede ahorrar un monton de trabajo pero no va a hacer el trabajo por ti. En otras palabras con esto pruebas que existe un parentesco antes de que inviertas un monton de tiempo en investigaciones tradicionales, solo para darte con que comparten el apellido pero no son parientes. Si alguna mujer tuvo un hijo fuera de matrimonio y es hijo y sus decendientes no comparten el apellido contigo, nunca se te ocurriria tratar de probar que existe un parentesco via paterna de todas maneras. Sin embargo por casualidad podria probar que algunos de esos niños a los que te refieres “hijos del cura” “hijos del señorito” aunque lleven un apellido distinto en realidad comparten la misma ancestria paternal contigo aunque no existan documentos que pruben eso. Justamente es en casos como ese que un proyecto geografico tiene sentido, por ejemplo: mucho antes de que hubieran leyes que regularan como se pasan los apellidos la gente podia ‘escoger’ su apellido. Si Juan el de los Porotos se casa con Maria La Tuerta y tienen un hijo Alberto, el podia escoger como llamarse, pudo haber sido Alberto de los Porotos y La Tuerta o Alberto La Tuerta de los Porotos, es mas podia unir los apellidos (aun se puede hacer eso) y/o solo usar uno y no reconocer el otro, podia hacer lo que mejor le pareciera. Asi que de esa manera existen muchas personas con las que estas emparentado via paterna y jamas lo sabrias si solo haces investigaciones genealogicas tradicionales. Una vez mas el ADN-Y se puede usar para encontrar respuestas a preguntas inexistentes lol

Elí

ooops "and later Moors" that should've read 'and later even Moors the descendants of Grandpa's R1b cousin Mr. J2'


Fe de errata: meti la pata, 'y mas tarde los Moros'... deberia decir 'y mas tarde los moros decendientes del Sr. J2, primo del abuelo R1b'

Thanks, Elí. I've signed up for a free test over at http://www.smgf.org

I'll have to ask some of my mother's brothers' sons to try it so we can get my Asturian grandfather into the database. It's interesting that--as far as I know--none of my Asturian grandmother's brothers had sons. I hadn't noticed that before.

Elí, is it true that you have to know your markers before you can search the database?

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Gracias, Elí. Me he matriculado para hacer una prueba gratis en http://www.smgf.org

Tendré que pedir a algunos hijos de los hermanos de mi madre que lo hagan también para que podamos poner a mi abuelo asturiano en la base de datos. Es interesante que - por lo que sé - ninguno de los hermanos de mi abuela asturiana tuvieran hijos. No lo había notado antes.

¿Elí, es verdad que se tenga que saber sus marcadores antes de que se pueda buscar en la base de datos?

Hey my pleasure, I think everybody should do it you know. I mean here they are doing this for you for free.... how often does that happen? They have nothing to gain from it, kinda like what LDS does they do something because they believe in it and since it is there they allow us to use it.... most would charge an arm and a leg for it, and get away with it too.. lol

Yeah no no kidding, it is incredible how lines disappear, for instance my Ggrandfather had 15 children, they had an average of 10 children each, my father’s generation had an average of 5 kids and mine has 2.5. The next one is not fully done and the one after that only has two kids so far. Anyways the thing is out of all these 4,125 descendants there are only 40 that will pass on the paternal line as of today... unreal. No wonder half of western Europe descends from grandpa R1b!

Well you can search the database anytime, but unless you have something to compare it against the search is meaningless since you can’t search it by surname, privacy issues I think ... don’t quote me on that. You could use my numbers to get an idea of what you’d see, I have no problem with that. Just click on the link below and that should pop up a window with my search results.

http://smgf.org/ysearch_results.jsp?con ... S385=11-15&
DYS439=12&DYS456=16&DYS388=12&DYS441=13&DYS458=17&DYS389I=13&
DYS442=12&DYS459=9-10&DYS389B=16&DYS444=12&DYS460=11&DYS390=24&
DYS445=12&DYS461=11&DYS391=10&DYS446=12&DYS462=11&DYS392=13&
DYS447=25&DYS463=24&DYS393=13&DYS448=22&GGAAT1B07=10&DYS394=15&
DYS449=31&YCAII=19-23&DYS426=12&DYS452=30&YGATAA10=12&DYS437=15&
DYS454=11&YGATAC4=23&DYS438=12&DYS455=11&YGATAH4=12&ysearchType
=genetic&matchProportion=0.85&surnameMatchType=approximate&showAllSurnames
=on&showCountries=on&showMissingData=on&submit_button=Find+Genetic+Matches

(so that it wont stretch the page to the right I have put breaks on that link, you may need to copy and paste the whole thing)

One can get some very interesting results with this stuff.... like for instance; markers 390 and 391 have a distinctive German characteristic. That could be indicative of Visigoth ancestry, but at this time that is not conclusive. So, to prove or disprove that origin, and track the route my prehistoric ancestors took, I’ve ordered a SNP (pronounced snip) test as well. I’m still waiting on the results

Eli

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Un placer el ayudar, me parece que todos lo deberian hacer. Estan haciendo una gran cosa para la humanidad y lo hacen gratis, algo asi como lo que hacen los Mormones. Ellos recogen toda esta informacion de las iglesias y la comparten con nosotros gratis cuando tranquilamente nos podrian cobrar un ojo de la cara por ello y muchos lo pagariamos con gusto.

Y que lo digas, es increible como desaparecen las lineas paternas, por ejemplo my bisabuelo tuvo 15 hijos ellos tuvieron un promedio de diez cada uno, la generacion de mi padre tuvo aproximadamente cinco cada uno y la mia tiene 2.5. Las siguientes dos generaciones aun no cuentan porque recien comienzan a tener hijos. En fin de el total de 4,125 decendientes del bisabuelo en este momento solo existen 40 varones van a pasar el apellido a la proxima generacion. Con razon la mitad de Europa occidental deciende del abuelo R1b!

Puedes buscar en la base de datos en cualquier momento, pero a menos de que tengas algo con que compararlo la busqueda no tendria valor alguno para ti ya que no la puedes buscar por apellido, me parece que por razones de privacidad aunque no estoy seguro de eso. Podrias usar mis resultados para darte una idea de que es lo que verias si tuvieras los tuyos. Solo haz click en el enlace de abajo, una nueva ventana deberia abrirse con los resultados de mi busqueda.

http://smgf.org/ysearch_results.jsp?con ... S385=11-15&
DYS439=12&DYS456=16&DYS388=12&DYS441=13&DYS458=17&DYS389I=13&
DYS442=12&DYS459=9-10&DYS389B=16&DYS444=12&DYS460=11&DYS390=24&
DYS445=12&DYS461=11&DYS391=10&DYS446=12&DYS462=11&DYS392=13&
DYS447=25&DYS463=24&DYS393=13&DYS448=22&GGAAT1B07=10&DYS394=15&
DYS449=31&YCAII=19-23&DYS426=12&DYS452=30&YGATAA10=12&DYS437=15&
DYS454=11&YGATAC4=23&DYS438=12&DYS455=11&YGATAH4=12&ysearchType
=genetic&matchProportion=0.85&surnameMatchType=approximate&showAllSurnames
=on&showCountries=on&showMissingData=on&submit_button=Find+Genetic+Matches

(para que no malogre la pagina he forzado a que valla a la siguiente linea varia veces en ese enlace, es probable que tengas que copiar toda la direccion a tu navegador)

Uno puede obtener resultados muy interesantes con esto... como por ejemplo los marcadores 390 y 391 tienen caracteristicas Germanicas. Eso podria indicar que tengo ancestria Visigoda, pero por ahora no puedo hacer esa asercion. Asi que para poder comprobar o descartar esa hipotesis y averiguar la ruta y travesia que mis ancestros prehistoricos tomaron ademas he tomado el examen SNP (se pronuncia snip). Aun estoy esperando los resultados que deben llegar dentro de un par de semanas.

Elí


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ps. love that 'edit' option! (yup, now I'm editing just because I can...)
pd. me encanta la opcion de poder editar!

Jeez, I wish I could participate, but I'm sceptic about releasing genetic data into the world where people traffic with almost everything.

It must be nice to find people with your same genetic markers, though. Last year I saw a documentary of a French journalist who was born somewhere in France where there is a famous mass grave of Huns (or was it Mongolians?) because a huge battle took place there, and he traced his ancestors through DNA markers and found "relatives" eastwards in Tirgizistan (not sure of the spelling), in eastern Mongolia and.... among the Apaches of Arizona! The documentary was very thrilling, because he actually visited those people and...they were not impressed, as if they had somehow known it for centuries.
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Vaya, me gustaría participar, pero soy escéptica en cuanto a divulgar datos genéticos por el mundo donde la gente trafica con casi todo.

Aunque tiene que ser estupendo encontrarte con gente que tenga tus mismos marcadores genéticos. El año pasado ví un documental de un periodista francés que había nacido en no sé que ciudad de Francia donde hubo una gran batalla y donde hay una gran fosa común de hunos (o de mongoles?). Pues resulta que pudo seguir la pista de sus antepasados a través de muestras de ADN y encontró "parientes" en Tirguizistán, en Mongolia oriental y en...entre los apaches de Arizona!
El documental estuvo muy emocionante porque fue a visitarlos y... no les impresionó mucho, como si ya lo hubieran sabido desde siempre

“Jeez, I wish I could participate, but I'm sceptic about releasing genetic data into the world where people traffic with almost everything.”

Actually it doesn’t work like that. In this case we are specifically looking for markers that have no genetic/medical value whatsoever. They look in the section of the Y-DNA that is considered ‘Junk DNA’, they do this because those sections can have errors in them for tens of thousands of years without having any impact, after all it is ‘junk’ simple accumulations of proteins that don’t “do” anything. If for instance you would look at the section in your DNA that actually does something (therefore has some medical value) it would have to be pretty much the same for all of us. However in junk material errors mistakes in copying can accumulate with no ill effect. So in this case at least although understandable, your worries are somewhat misplaced.

Yes it is interesting to find folks you don’t know with whom you share a common ancestor, kinda makes me wonder ... ‘huh! did my ancestor went there or did on of his got in my line...’ Ha ha, actually it doesn’t work like that, the most likely explanation would be that he is a descendant from a brother of my ancestor (specially when one is in England and the other in Spain). Yes, I did see that documentary some time ago, don’t remember the whole thing but remember they had their own stories about creation for some reason that strikes me as important in that documentary although I don’t remember why maybe it coincided with the stories of other folks....

This one guy in FTDNA some time ago found out that he and the ‘ice man’ that was found in Italy’s Alps shared a common ancestor. Although in that case it was through mt-DNA still it was kinda cool.

Elí

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“Vaya, me gustaría participar, pero soy escéptica en cuanto a divulgar datos genéticos por el mundo donde la gente trafica con casi todo. ”

En realidad no trabaja asi, en este caso lo que hacen es investigar las secciones que se consideran ‘junk’ o ‘basura’ del ADNN ya que como son secciones ‘basura’ pueden acumular errores por miles de años sin tener consequencias para las personas, ya que no tienen ninguna funcion biologica tampoco tienen ningun valor genetico, excepto talvez para estudios genealogico y/o antropologicos. Si no fueran secciones ‘basura’ casi forzosamente tendrian que ser lo mismo para todos nosotros.

Es interesante el encontrar personas con las que compartes un ancestro en comun, a veces uno se pregunta ‘huh fue mi ancestro alla, o el suyo se metio en mi familia....’ ha aunque claro no trabaja asi, solo estoy jugando. Lo mas probable es que el deciende de un hermano de mi ancestro y el ancestro comun nunca fue a ninguna parte. Si vi el documental del que hablas, me parece recordar que las leyendas de la tribu incluian historias sobre la creacion y por algun motivo era importante, talvez por que coincidian con las historias al otro lado del mundo...

Este tipo en FTDNA hace algun tiempo comento que el y el ‘ice man’ que fue encontrado en la frontera de Italia/Austria compartian un ancestro en comun. Aunque en este caso fue a travez del mt-ADNN, de todas maneras es bacan.

Elí

I was reading my e-mail and it occur to me that maybe I should have one of the professionals do the explaining. Below a copy of todays newsletter, hope the links work.
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Honoring Our Ancestors
DNA Database Diving
by Megan Smolenyak Smolenyak

In my last article on genetic genealogy (which I like to shorten to 'genetealogy'), I explained that many of us have already been DNA tested by proxy, even if we're not aware of it! Because of the way Y-DNA is passed down through family trees (that is, essentially the same way as surnames), one man's sample can represent countless cousins, both living and deceased. Consequently, I provided some suggestions for finding out whether you're one of the lucky people who's already been tested by virtue of a male relative of the same surname already having taken the plunge into the world of genetealogy.

In this follow up, I'll share a collection of online resources for extracting a bit more meaning from your results -- that pile of numbers that looks like some sort of parts list (also known as a 'haplotype'). I hope this will prove useful for those of you who have recently taken a test and aren't sure where to go from here. And of course, this is also for those fortunate ones who have just discovered that they've already been tested by proxy.

The Matchmaking Game
The pile of numbers you receive after testing is not especially meaningful in and of itself. Its value comes through what I like to think of as a matchmaking game. When you search a conventional genealogy database for entries that match the known details of one of your ancestors, you're involved in a matchmaking quest. You enter a name and perhaps a date or location and hope to find results that are a perfect or, at least, a very close fit.

The same applies with genetic genealogy. There are a number of databases, both public and private, where you can enter your results in the hope of finding perfect or, at least, close matches. Fortunately, some of them are quasi-automated so you can either upload your numbers with the press of a button or just enter them one time and save them for future use. This is a handy feature because, like all databases, they grow over time and you'll want to check back from time to time to see if any fresh matches have appeared.

Three Layers
When you receive your results, there are essentially three layers of analysis you can perform. You can play the matchmaking game in:

* your own project
* your testing company's proprietary database, and/or
* public access databases

Some are content to stop at the first level, but most genealogists are curious souls, so we can't help but explore for more insight.

Your Own Project
Most current projects are surname-focused (although as I explained in the last article, there are a growing number of geographically- and ethnically-oriented projects), so it's logical that the first step you'll take is to compare results with others of the same surname within your project. Most project managers make this easy for participants by providing color-coded charts on their websites, such as this example.

You can simply scan them, look for your own results (usually listed under the name of the earliest known ancestor in that line or some sort of code), and inspect others in the same color. Any differences between your numbers and those of your neighbors are generally highlighted in some way so they're easy to spot and you don't have to compare number by number.

Anyone who matches you is now your research buddy because you know that you share a common ancestor at some point. DNA testing can't reveal who that ancestor is, but you now know for sure that your lines converge at some point. And if you're really fortunate, you'll match with someone who's done a lot more research than you!

Testing Company's Database
Even if your project lacks a dedicated website, the company you test with will notify you of any matches within your project or throughout its entire proprietary database. This assumes, of course, that you have signed the release form that allows the company to play matchmaker on your behalf. All this release permits the company to do is to seek matches and provide an email address to both parties when one is found.

Just as you might send an e-mail to someone who's posted a branch of your family tree online, you'll want to contact those who match you to compare notes. There is one caveat, however. As you peruse your project's results, you'll discover that haplotypes behave much like surnames in that some are more common than others. Some will have lots of matches -- almost the genetic equivalent of being a Smith -- while others will find that their results are very rare.

If your results are rare, by all means, contact your genetic mates. For instance, my father's Y-DNA is quite rare and has sat forlorn and matchless since 2001. Just when conducting research for this article, though, I discovered his first match -- a fellow from Poland. Did I email him? You bet.

But if your haplotype is very common, you might want to be more selective, just as you might think twice before emailing hundreds of Smiths. In fact, those with common haplotypes might want to consider upgrading to a higher resolution test to narrow the field of matches.

Public Access Databases
When genetealogy first came into being back in 2000, what I've outlined above were essentially our only analysis options -- that, and a scientific database (www.yhrd.org) that genealogists tripped across and started using for our own purposes. Since then, several other databases have emerged. Now when you get your results, you can enter them at any or all of the following to see if any additional matches or other information are revealed:

* YHRD: A database for the scientific community that furnishes no genealogical data, but can be used for indications of geographic origin.
* YBase: Sponsored by DNA Heritage, but open to all regardless of which company you tested with. Can be searched by haplotype or surname, and has some fun features such one that plots your matches on a map.
* YSearch: Sponsored by Family Tree DNA, but open to all regardless of which company you tested with. Can also be searched by haplotype and surname and includes useful features such as the ability to attach a GEDCOM to your results.
* SMGF: This is where the Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation (a topic for its own article) shares results, including pre-1900 pedigrees, from its worldwide study. Some of you may have participated if you gave a blood or mouthwash sample at a genealogical event over the last few years. You can add to the database (for free) by requesting a kit by mail and submitting it with your pedigree.
* YFiler: Another non-genealogical database that we've co-opted because of its ability to provide population group affiliation.

Happy Diving!
For those of you who go database diving, I wish you good luck with your quest for genetic cousins. For those of you who would like to learn more, please explore my mini-library of articles on this topic.

For those of you still pondering whether to dip your toe into the waters of genetealogy, I know quite a few people who have requested a test for a birthday or other special event (hint, hint!). And finally, in a shameless plug for my own DNA projects, please consider contacting me if you have roots in Osturna, Slovakia or are interested in exploring any of the following surnames: Nelligan (Neligan, etc.), Motichka (Motyczka, etc.), Reynolds and Shields.

Megan Smolenyak Smolenyak, co-author (with Ann Turner) of Trace Your Roots with DNA: Using Genetic Tests to Explore Your Family Tree, as well as In Search of Our Ancestors,Honoring Our Ancestors and They Came to America, can be contacted through www.genetealogy.com and www.honoringourancestors.com.
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The Sorenson Molecular Genealogy Foundation is looking for participants from non-US countries. Are any of our Asturian cousins interested? It's free and easy.
www.smgf.org/

www.smgf.org wrote:Our goal is to construct a database that represents many significant worldwide populations. However, our current sample base is predominantly composed of individuals from the United States. Any assistance in eliciting participation abroad is especially welcome.

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La Fundación de Genealogía Molecular Sorenson busca a participantes de países no estadounidenses. ¿Sería interesado cualquiera de nuestros primos asturianos? Es gratis y fácil.
www.smgf.org/

www.smgf.org wrote:Nuestro objetivo es de construir una base de datos que representa muchas poblaciones significativas mundiales. Sin embargo, nuestra base de la muestra corrientemente es predominantemente compuesto de individuos de los Estados Unidos. Cualquier ayuda en la obtención de la participación en el extranjero es sobre todo bienvenida.

Hola Art y Eli,

This subject intrigues me also. I retired from Law Enforcement and ten years or so ago I submitted my DNA to the database. At the time they wanted to expand their data, I guess markers, and were looking for Hispanic’s to participate. Later after testing I was given a card with my DNA markers ????? I will have to see if I can find the card. I did not pay much attention at the time and I am really am not sure what markers or DNA information was passed back to me. Eli, do you have an idea what would be used in such a data base ? Would these markers be valuable in genetic genealogy ? I think I may participate in the free service too.

Roberto Vega

Hi Roberto,

There is a database for this type of studies kept by the police, it started in Europe and later became an international database, I believe the US participates with info but don’t know to what extent. A quick search for ‘Vega’ returned no results most scientists use it for population studies nowadays, to aid in their own studies.

The tests and markers are the same we use in genetic genealogy, however because their aim is different they use a much lower resolution; 12 markers. While we use at least 23 and as much as 43 currently I believe new tests with upwards of 80 markers are being developed. So it’s the same thing but much less refined, I don’t know if the US has a separate database that serves the same purpose and if so if it is public but don’t think so, I would’ve heard of it.

You can browse/search that database at http://www.yhrd.org/index.html

[edit] to add that you can get a nifty idea of how are *some* (there is not enough info on Spaniards as of yet) families related here
http://www.geocities.com/mcewanjc/37strallhapr1bone.pdf
that was created using the information acquired from YDNA studies.