Entrevista con Art Zoller Wagner, Les Noticies
Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:44 pm
Dear Xente:
I'm pleased to announce that the Asturian weekly 'Les Noticies' features a Q&A with Art Zoller Wagner in this week's edition (April 27, 2007). For those of you in Asturias, you can find 'Les Noticies' at your daily newsstand. In smaller locations, it is sold at bookstores. Here is an English-language version of the Q&A. Art will also post the PDF files, which will become available a week from today at www.lesnoticies.com.
-Art Zoller Wagner
Web designer, social engineer and manager of www.asturianUS.org
“The Asturian government seems to have bought off everyone, with payments for the unemployed, the early retired and the students.” Art Zoller Wagner, a descendant of Asturian émigrés to the US and one of the people behind www.asturianUS.org, casts his opinion, peppered by devotion and a sense of critical disenchantment, about a homeland where corporate enterprise should grow in such a way that it ends the cycle of dependence.
“I’d love to work in Asturias and take part in the rebuilding of the economy and of the culture.” –Art Zoller Wagner
On last count, AsturianUS.org had 1,004 members, half of whom live in Asturias. Art Zoller Wagner, a descendant of immigrants from Avilés, is the administrator and ultimate arbiter of the Internet portal. In 2003, Art received a phone call from Suronda Gonzalez, a professor at SUNY Binghamton, asking him how they could use the Internet to reconnect people from the Asturian diaspora in the US. Recreating a virtual social network would be a novel way to learn about their grandparents’ experience. Bob Martínez, a biology professor at Quinnipiac University in Connecticut, became the third wheel, later joined by Terechu Rondo as forum moderator. Building www.asturianUS.org has been a joint effort, says Art. Together with Alberto Prieto Calixto, of Rollins College in Florida, they are now threatening to create the a second Asturian-American bagpipe band (one already exists in Los Angeles). Carlos Garcia, a bagpipe artisan based in Xixon, is helping out with the chanters. “Our interests are alive and evolving, not locked in a reliquary like a dried-out toenail,” says Art, who has just taken up the Asturian language.
Les Noticies: What were you thinking when you first rolled out your web site about Asturian-Americans in West Virginia?
Art Zoller Wagner: In 2003, we were aware that there had been a very active social network which included formal and informal systems of financial and medical assistance. This network was centered in the Mid-Atlantic and Midwestern states and was mainly related to the zinc industry. The network had nearly disappeared, but a new interest was rising among the grandchildren of the original immigrants. So, starting with Suronda’s idea, I created a forum for the ‘nietos’. Bob Martínez and Terechu Rondo came on board to help guide our development. We make most decisions collaboratively.
Q. Any surprises?
A. We ran into a couple of big surprises. The first was that our Asturian cousins were interested in reconnecting with us. The other was that there were more Asturian communities and immigrants than we realized. Zinc industry wasn’t the only thing that drew Asturians to the US. We now know that there were other networks based on where the Asturians were from and which industries they were employed in. Until the 21st century, each network knew little to nothing about the others. Now the forum has members from many countries in the Americas. About half of our members live in Asturias. Many are recent emigrants, so the exodus continues.
Q. How deep is the Asturian-American identity among the descendants of immigrants to Spelter, West Virginia, and Donora, Pennsylvania?
A. Spelter is just one of the locations near Clarksburg where Asturians immigrants lived and worked. There was an Asturian social club in Clarksburg that drew members from the towns of Anmoore and Spelter, the city of Clarksburg, and surrounding areas. Spelter was probably predominantly Asturian because its sole reason for existence was a zinc factory and it was Asturians who did most of the hard labor there. When the zinc industry declined, many of the Asturians moved on to other places. The dilution of the community and the enculturation of the younger generations led to a decline of both Asturian presence and Asturian consciousness. Many of my cousins are only vaguely aware of Asturias and its distinct culture. This is why one of my goals with AsturianUS.org is to promote cultural awareness, especially through its language, music, and foods.
Q. How did these immigrants arrive in the US?
A. The family story is that my maternal grandparents, Aurora Menéndez Conde and Emilio Fernández Alvarez, left Avilés (Sabugo and San Cristóbal) the same day they were married. My great-grandfather was angry that his daughter, Aurora, was leaving. So he didn’t go to either the wedding or the port to see them off. The two reasons I’ve heard for their leaving Asturias was that my grandfather didn’t want to be a sailor like his father and he didn’t want to have to do military service. When my grandparents left for Havana, Cuba, in January 1914, they both had siblings in Havana and in the US, so they weren’t bold adventurers. Three years later they moved from Cuba to Anmoore, West Virginia, to be near one of my grandmother’s sisters, Lola. My grandfather had three brothers in the US at one point before the Spanish Civil War. The brothers were renowned as excellent soccer players. Two of them later returned to Asturias, supported different sides, and died in the war.
Q. How do you typically describe Asturias to Americans?
A. First, I tell them that Asturias is part of “Green Spain.” That often draws a bewildered look because many Americans only “know” about the arid areas in central and southern Spain. I compare its landscape to West Virginia and California. Then I tell them about the culture of Asturias, the gaita, cider, and the dairy farm tradition. I end with an explanation of the Atlantic Arc and how Asturies shares a similar cultural heritage with Ireland, England, Scotland, Brittany, Wales, Isle of Man, Cornwall, and Galicia. Once in a while I meet someone who has visited Asturias. They inevitably feel strongly attracted to it. Asturias has an irresistible pull on us.
Q. What is the secret to getting people of different nationalities, political sensibilities and walks of life so involved?
A. Like any organization, we struggle with our differences. I write a number of private emails and forum messages to try to encourage civility and openness. During the last presidential election we opened an area of the forum for political discussion. Both those on the left and the right were highly emotional about their views. Many members simply repeated the usual Democratic and Republican platitudes. When asked pointed questions, some of those on the right replied with contempt and even physical threats. In retrospect, what happened, I think, was that the Republican Party, in particular, had encouraged “loyalty” to the exclusion of critical thinking. Faithfulness to any party line is poisonous for democracy; we each have a responsibility to think for ourselves. To be honest, it surprised me that we had so many right-wing Asturian-Americans. Their grandparents were nearly all very much on the left. As the ‘nietos’ grew more prosperous, perhaps they let self-interest replace their grandparents’ desire for the common good.
Q. You have very interesting, sometimes almost scientific postings on themes like music, language, food, cider, politics and genealogy. What threads get the most traffic at AsturianUS.org?
A. By far the most popular area of the forum is genealogy, and that is the typical point of entry for new members. But the other top topics include, “About Asturias,” “Political Discussion,” and (surprisingly) “Asturianu and Bables”.
Q. Did you know that the molecular mass of polypeptides in Asturian cider has serious implications on the height of the foam when serving a ‘culin’? Bob Martínez posted that recently...
A. Until today, no, I didn’t!
Q. Language has been turned into a political issue in Asturias. While other autonomous regions in Spain have instituted a bilingual policy for their local languages, the regional PSOE/FSA-led government has not extended this right to its own citizens. How is this reflected at AsturianUS.org?
A. One of the first things I did was make the forum controls available in Asturianu. Several Asturians wrote to me to express their surprise that we in the US would value their language more than their own government! We encourage members to post in Asturianu, Castellano, and English, as they are able. We try to translate many of the messages because many of our members only read English or Castellano. We do value the Asturian language and we support legalization by encouraging discussion of the issues. Our hope is that with broader discussion a solution will be found. We also support the assignment of .ast as the top level domain for Asturian websites.
Q. The Asturian president labeled the 18,000 young people who leave Asturias each year in search of work as ‘urban myths’. Have you noticed a mentality difference between those purported ‘urban myths’ and the young Asturians who have stayed home?
A. That’s an interesting question. No, I haven’t. All of the young Asturians I’ve talked to, without exception, have been painfully aware of the lack of opportunities for them in Asturias. Many have had to leave the land they love just to have a career. Whether they have left or not, most are disgusted with their government. Eventually, this deep-seated dissatisfaction is going to show up in Asturian politics.
Q. What is your take on the 30-year economic gridlock in Asturias? Does any state in the US remind you of the kind of economic recession (closure of mines, dismantling of heavy industry, farm bankruptcies) that Asturias is going through?
A. Asturias is different from any state I know in the US, except perhaps West Virginia. I suspect that industry and business in the most rural areas has been declining for decades. The Kennedy brothers were appalled by the poverty they saw during the 1960 election campaign. In response they created a number of government programs with the laudable desire to bring West Virginians out of poverty. But the result has been a decline in self-reliance among the poor. The poor used to be hard-scrabble farmers tilling the soil. Now they till the dole. So, it’s clear to me that the solution isn’t long-term government handouts. There have to be programs that encourage entrepreneurial activity and interdependence rather than dependence.
Similarly, the Asturian government seems to have bought off everyone with payments for the unemployed, the early retired, the students, etc. We do need a social safety net to support people in transition, but it decays the soul when this support erodes an individual’s desire to plan for and work toward a better future. I wonder sometimes if Asturians are limited by their vision of what’s possible. Unlike Americans, Asturians came through the Franco era with a government-controlled economy. This paternalistic system provided a high level of security, as long as you went to church and didn’t speak out. But the security came at the cost of immense inefficiency, which means that the economy can’t compete in a global marketplace. Labor unions, although they have an essential role, often encourage this inefficiency, too. Contemporary politicians, with their pandering to citizens in order to gain or retain their power, are no better than Franco.
Q. How do you think the situation of decline can be reversed?
A. Part of the problem is that the dominant Asturian political parties are controlled by one person. That means that the party (and Asturias) can’t benefit from the collective intelligence, which far exceeds any one person’s. Perhaps positive change will occur when a coalition of political parties gains power and those parties and their members actually debate what the future of Asturias should look like. I’m confident that ultimate solution will include a combination of less generous social benefits and more encouragement of personal and corporate enterprise. I’m also confident that the answer won’t come from either the left or the right. The secret of democracy isn’t that it allows us to elect the best leaders. Democracy’s secret ingredient is that it forces us to moderate the extremes. Like-minded people, no matter how smart, won’t come up with good solutions. The most effective solutions arise when everyone – each with their wildly contrasting interests and needs – participates openly in the process.
Q. As a web developer and community builder, have you ever considered starting up a techie joint in Asturias?
A. You bet I have! I’d love to work in Asturias and take part in the rebuilding of the economy and of the culture, although my first role in terms of culture would be as a student.
Q. You’ve recently opened a section on the web site titled the ‘weekly word in Asturian’. How much progress have you made in learning the language?
A. Through my work in creating several Asturian websites and this new “Asturian word of the week” feature on AsturianUS.org, I’ve learned a few dozen words. I can read a fair amount now, but I’ve got a lot more work to do before I can hold a conversation. That reminds me of my first attempt to speak Asturianu, which was at my cousins’ home in Avilés when they offered me a third helping at dinner. I said, “¡Toi fartucu!” They looked stunned and were silent for a moment. Then they laughed and asked me, “Where did you learn that!?”
END
I'm pleased to announce that the Asturian weekly 'Les Noticies' features a Q&A with Art Zoller Wagner in this week's edition (April 27, 2007). For those of you in Asturias, you can find 'Les Noticies' at your daily newsstand. In smaller locations, it is sold at bookstores. Here is an English-language version of the Q&A. Art will also post the PDF files, which will become available a week from today at www.lesnoticies.com.
-Art Zoller Wagner
Web designer, social engineer and manager of www.asturianUS.org
“The Asturian government seems to have bought off everyone, with payments for the unemployed, the early retired and the students.” Art Zoller Wagner, a descendant of Asturian émigrés to the US and one of the people behind www.asturianUS.org, casts his opinion, peppered by devotion and a sense of critical disenchantment, about a homeland where corporate enterprise should grow in such a way that it ends the cycle of dependence.
“I’d love to work in Asturias and take part in the rebuilding of the economy and of the culture.” –Art Zoller Wagner
On last count, AsturianUS.org had 1,004 members, half of whom live in Asturias. Art Zoller Wagner, a descendant of immigrants from Avilés, is the administrator and ultimate arbiter of the Internet portal. In 2003, Art received a phone call from Suronda Gonzalez, a professor at SUNY Binghamton, asking him how they could use the Internet to reconnect people from the Asturian diaspora in the US. Recreating a virtual social network would be a novel way to learn about their grandparents’ experience. Bob Martínez, a biology professor at Quinnipiac University in Connecticut, became the third wheel, later joined by Terechu Rondo as forum moderator. Building www.asturianUS.org has been a joint effort, says Art. Together with Alberto Prieto Calixto, of Rollins College in Florida, they are now threatening to create the a second Asturian-American bagpipe band (one already exists in Los Angeles). Carlos Garcia, a bagpipe artisan based in Xixon, is helping out with the chanters. “Our interests are alive and evolving, not locked in a reliquary like a dried-out toenail,” says Art, who has just taken up the Asturian language.
Les Noticies: What were you thinking when you first rolled out your web site about Asturian-Americans in West Virginia?
Art Zoller Wagner: In 2003, we were aware that there had been a very active social network which included formal and informal systems of financial and medical assistance. This network was centered in the Mid-Atlantic and Midwestern states and was mainly related to the zinc industry. The network had nearly disappeared, but a new interest was rising among the grandchildren of the original immigrants. So, starting with Suronda’s idea, I created a forum for the ‘nietos’. Bob Martínez and Terechu Rondo came on board to help guide our development. We make most decisions collaboratively.
Q. Any surprises?
A. We ran into a couple of big surprises. The first was that our Asturian cousins were interested in reconnecting with us. The other was that there were more Asturian communities and immigrants than we realized. Zinc industry wasn’t the only thing that drew Asturians to the US. We now know that there were other networks based on where the Asturians were from and which industries they were employed in. Until the 21st century, each network knew little to nothing about the others. Now the forum has members from many countries in the Americas. About half of our members live in Asturias. Many are recent emigrants, so the exodus continues.
Q. How deep is the Asturian-American identity among the descendants of immigrants to Spelter, West Virginia, and Donora, Pennsylvania?
A. Spelter is just one of the locations near Clarksburg where Asturians immigrants lived and worked. There was an Asturian social club in Clarksburg that drew members from the towns of Anmoore and Spelter, the city of Clarksburg, and surrounding areas. Spelter was probably predominantly Asturian because its sole reason for existence was a zinc factory and it was Asturians who did most of the hard labor there. When the zinc industry declined, many of the Asturians moved on to other places. The dilution of the community and the enculturation of the younger generations led to a decline of both Asturian presence and Asturian consciousness. Many of my cousins are only vaguely aware of Asturias and its distinct culture. This is why one of my goals with AsturianUS.org is to promote cultural awareness, especially through its language, music, and foods.
Q. How did these immigrants arrive in the US?
A. The family story is that my maternal grandparents, Aurora Menéndez Conde and Emilio Fernández Alvarez, left Avilés (Sabugo and San Cristóbal) the same day they were married. My great-grandfather was angry that his daughter, Aurora, was leaving. So he didn’t go to either the wedding or the port to see them off. The two reasons I’ve heard for their leaving Asturias was that my grandfather didn’t want to be a sailor like his father and he didn’t want to have to do military service. When my grandparents left for Havana, Cuba, in January 1914, they both had siblings in Havana and in the US, so they weren’t bold adventurers. Three years later they moved from Cuba to Anmoore, West Virginia, to be near one of my grandmother’s sisters, Lola. My grandfather had three brothers in the US at one point before the Spanish Civil War. The brothers were renowned as excellent soccer players. Two of them later returned to Asturias, supported different sides, and died in the war.
Q. How do you typically describe Asturias to Americans?
A. First, I tell them that Asturias is part of “Green Spain.” That often draws a bewildered look because many Americans only “know” about the arid areas in central and southern Spain. I compare its landscape to West Virginia and California. Then I tell them about the culture of Asturias, the gaita, cider, and the dairy farm tradition. I end with an explanation of the Atlantic Arc and how Asturies shares a similar cultural heritage with Ireland, England, Scotland, Brittany, Wales, Isle of Man, Cornwall, and Galicia. Once in a while I meet someone who has visited Asturias. They inevitably feel strongly attracted to it. Asturias has an irresistible pull on us.
Q. What is the secret to getting people of different nationalities, political sensibilities and walks of life so involved?
A. Like any organization, we struggle with our differences. I write a number of private emails and forum messages to try to encourage civility and openness. During the last presidential election we opened an area of the forum for political discussion. Both those on the left and the right were highly emotional about their views. Many members simply repeated the usual Democratic and Republican platitudes. When asked pointed questions, some of those on the right replied with contempt and even physical threats. In retrospect, what happened, I think, was that the Republican Party, in particular, had encouraged “loyalty” to the exclusion of critical thinking. Faithfulness to any party line is poisonous for democracy; we each have a responsibility to think for ourselves. To be honest, it surprised me that we had so many right-wing Asturian-Americans. Their grandparents were nearly all very much on the left. As the ‘nietos’ grew more prosperous, perhaps they let self-interest replace their grandparents’ desire for the common good.
Q. You have very interesting, sometimes almost scientific postings on themes like music, language, food, cider, politics and genealogy. What threads get the most traffic at AsturianUS.org?
A. By far the most popular area of the forum is genealogy, and that is the typical point of entry for new members. But the other top topics include, “About Asturias,” “Political Discussion,” and (surprisingly) “Asturianu and Bables”.
Q. Did you know that the molecular mass of polypeptides in Asturian cider has serious implications on the height of the foam when serving a ‘culin’? Bob Martínez posted that recently...
A. Until today, no, I didn’t!
Q. Language has been turned into a political issue in Asturias. While other autonomous regions in Spain have instituted a bilingual policy for their local languages, the regional PSOE/FSA-led government has not extended this right to its own citizens. How is this reflected at AsturianUS.org?
A. One of the first things I did was make the forum controls available in Asturianu. Several Asturians wrote to me to express their surprise that we in the US would value their language more than their own government! We encourage members to post in Asturianu, Castellano, and English, as they are able. We try to translate many of the messages because many of our members only read English or Castellano. We do value the Asturian language and we support legalization by encouraging discussion of the issues. Our hope is that with broader discussion a solution will be found. We also support the assignment of .ast as the top level domain for Asturian websites.
Q. The Asturian president labeled the 18,000 young people who leave Asturias each year in search of work as ‘urban myths’. Have you noticed a mentality difference between those purported ‘urban myths’ and the young Asturians who have stayed home?
A. That’s an interesting question. No, I haven’t. All of the young Asturians I’ve talked to, without exception, have been painfully aware of the lack of opportunities for them in Asturias. Many have had to leave the land they love just to have a career. Whether they have left or not, most are disgusted with their government. Eventually, this deep-seated dissatisfaction is going to show up in Asturian politics.
Q. What is your take on the 30-year economic gridlock in Asturias? Does any state in the US remind you of the kind of economic recession (closure of mines, dismantling of heavy industry, farm bankruptcies) that Asturias is going through?
A. Asturias is different from any state I know in the US, except perhaps West Virginia. I suspect that industry and business in the most rural areas has been declining for decades. The Kennedy brothers were appalled by the poverty they saw during the 1960 election campaign. In response they created a number of government programs with the laudable desire to bring West Virginians out of poverty. But the result has been a decline in self-reliance among the poor. The poor used to be hard-scrabble farmers tilling the soil. Now they till the dole. So, it’s clear to me that the solution isn’t long-term government handouts. There have to be programs that encourage entrepreneurial activity and interdependence rather than dependence.
Similarly, the Asturian government seems to have bought off everyone with payments for the unemployed, the early retired, the students, etc. We do need a social safety net to support people in transition, but it decays the soul when this support erodes an individual’s desire to plan for and work toward a better future. I wonder sometimes if Asturians are limited by their vision of what’s possible. Unlike Americans, Asturians came through the Franco era with a government-controlled economy. This paternalistic system provided a high level of security, as long as you went to church and didn’t speak out. But the security came at the cost of immense inefficiency, which means that the economy can’t compete in a global marketplace. Labor unions, although they have an essential role, often encourage this inefficiency, too. Contemporary politicians, with their pandering to citizens in order to gain or retain their power, are no better than Franco.
Q. How do you think the situation of decline can be reversed?
A. Part of the problem is that the dominant Asturian political parties are controlled by one person. That means that the party (and Asturias) can’t benefit from the collective intelligence, which far exceeds any one person’s. Perhaps positive change will occur when a coalition of political parties gains power and those parties and their members actually debate what the future of Asturias should look like. I’m confident that ultimate solution will include a combination of less generous social benefits and more encouragement of personal and corporate enterprise. I’m also confident that the answer won’t come from either the left or the right. The secret of democracy isn’t that it allows us to elect the best leaders. Democracy’s secret ingredient is that it forces us to moderate the extremes. Like-minded people, no matter how smart, won’t come up with good solutions. The most effective solutions arise when everyone – each with their wildly contrasting interests and needs – participates openly in the process.
Q. As a web developer and community builder, have you ever considered starting up a techie joint in Asturias?
A. You bet I have! I’d love to work in Asturias and take part in the rebuilding of the economy and of the culture, although my first role in terms of culture would be as a student.
Q. You’ve recently opened a section on the web site titled the ‘weekly word in Asturian’. How much progress have you made in learning the language?
A. Through my work in creating several Asturian websites and this new “Asturian word of the week” feature on AsturianUS.org, I’ve learned a few dozen words. I can read a fair amount now, but I’ve got a lot more work to do before I can hold a conversation. That reminds me of my first attempt to speak Asturianu, which was at my cousins’ home in Avilés when they offered me a third helping at dinner. I said, “¡Toi fartucu!” They looked stunned and were silent for a moment. Then they laughed and asked me, “Where did you learn that!?”
END