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Grace before meals
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2003 10:35 am
by Bob
My grandparents would sometimes recite the following before meals:
Gracias a Dios
y a nuesos amos
que comimos
y nos fartucamos
Do any of our members have similar recollections? Other examples of grace before meals in castellano, asturianu, or a blend of the two languages?
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2003 1:48 am
by Art
I find it interesting that your grace used the word "fartucamos." I wonder if it is one of the quintessential Asturian words?
When I asked some friends in Asturias what some common words in Asturianu were, the very first one they mentioned was "fartuco", which they said I should use when a host offers me more food and I'm already full. Later we went to visit my cousins and I used "fartuco" at one of our meals. Everyone stopped, looked at me in disbelief, and then laughed!
I hadn't realized until recently that it is a verb, fartucar. Fartuco is the past participle, which I think can be used like this: "Toy fartuco!", meaning "I'm stuffed!"
The word "fartuco" was also used similarly in an 1898 text:
Faite el cargo de que toy estronzao pa la Cuaresma, y fartuco de espinaca y sardines en conserva, garbanzos, fabes redondes, y bacalao de Noruega...
You can read more of the text on this La Nueva España Web page:
http://www.lanuevaespana.es/archivo/200 ... I06JC1.htm
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2003 6:11 am
by Bob
The castellano equivalent is hartar. Asturianu preserves a lot of f's that were converted to h's in castellano because of a desire to make spelling reflect the changes in pronunciation that took place as the various versions of vulgar Latin evolved into castellano. Hijo in castellano is fiu in asturianu, hoz is foz, etc.
The past participle can be fartuco, as you have pointed out, fartuca or fartucu.
A tragedy behind the word "amos"
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 3:26 pm
by Llueis
I'll write in english because I find it's the most useful language for all the readers of the forum. Therefore, please excuse my poor knowledge. First of all, congratulations for your wonderful project and its beautiful performance in the Internet.
I'd like you to pay attention to the second phrase of that "copla", referring to the 'amos'. It's a clarifying example of the pseudo-slavery regime which occasionally existed in the rural economy of Asturias until the first decades of XXth century and even further, and constituted an extreme situation of the poverty which led thousands of asturian people to the other side of the ocean.
Thank you.
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 4:00 pm
by Art
Afayege, Llueis! (That might be horrible Bable. I hope not!)
That's an interesting point. I assume from what you wrote that the word "amos," refers to the owners of the land, the "masters"? Was the condition of many rural Asturians like that of the Russian serfs?
My translation would be something like:
Thanks be to God
and to our masters
who feed us
and satisfy our needs.
Is that close?
Gracias a Dios
y a nuesos amos
que comimos
y nos fartucamos
More about the "amos"
Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2003 5:34 pm
by Llueis
Art wrote:
Bones nueiches:
A little bit more accurate translation will be like this:
Thanks be to god
and to our masters (=owners)
that we are fed
and we got fed up.
(it doesn't sound very poetic, but is the litteral translation)
The situation of asturian farmers was in general not so extremely dependent as that of Russian serfs. In northern Spain, as a consequence of different Germanic invaders as well as thanks to the royal distinctions (who considered all Asturian people as "fidalgos" (=sons of someone, a low nobility grade) because of they were "old christians" and had "ressited" against the Arabs) the feudal system was different from the most classical one in France and Central Europe. Here, the masters (earls and specially monks and the Bishop) were not "lords of souls" but simple "lords of lands". Villages kept their independence and could have their own rules, but the power was actually exerced by that one who owned the lands and cattles and rented them to the farmers. Beside these "free farmers" were of course the clerks of the richs, who did really live as slaves. All this structure was not destroyed until the sources of richness started to be mining and steel industry. This is of course a very simple description of the problem, but I hope it can help.
Alón.
Afayege, Llueis! (That might be horrible Bable. I hope not!)
That's an interesting point. I assume from what you wrote that the word "amos," refers to the owners of the land, the "masters"? Was the condition of many rural Asturians like that of the Russian serfs?
My translation would be something like:
Thanks be to God
and to our masters
who feed us
and satisfy our needs.
Is that close?
Gracias a Dios
y a nuesos amos
que comimos
y nos fartucamos
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 12:43 am
by Art
That's funny, Llueis! You may know that "fed up" (at least in US English) means "harto" in the sense of being tired, angry, or frustrated. Those "two-word verbs" are tricky, aren't they?!
I remember seeing an excellent movie, "Los Santos Inocentes," [corrected after Xiblaniella's response] from the 1980s that showed tensions between a rich family of land owners, and the poor who worked the land. THat film probably illustrated something similar what you've described.
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:40 am
by xiblaniella
Hi:
Talking about "amo" i think i have to desagree with Llueis. You cann't translate literally. I remember in the 80's a friend of mine from a rural area in Asturies always talked about his father's "amu".
I couldnt believe it and i tried him not to use that word that i considered humillating. His father worked in a factory and i can assure you he earned a wage every month
I realised that for my friend the word "amu" was exactly like "jefe" (boss) for me. I think that's one of the meanings it has in asturian.
Art, i think you talk about mean the wonderful "Los Santos Inocentes" a film by Mario Camús based on Delibes novel. However the situation it depicts its that of Extremadura, quite different (and worse) from that of Asturian peasents.
Bob, i think you can keep using "Bienveníu", "Afayate" is ok but it is a modern use that not everbody would agree with. It's taken from the verb "afayase" which means "feeling fine somewhere". The most popular world associated to it is "afayaízu" which is something like "cosy" y english.
You might say "Esti foru ye afayaízu. Afáyome equí"
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:22 am
by Art
Thanks, Xiblaniella, it was indeed Los Santos Inocentes, one of my favorites...then again, I half of the movies are see are favorites!
There was also a movie, possibly called "El Carbonero," about a man who made carbon for a living by coking logs. His son fell into the fire. I think the "amo" helped the man take his child to the doctor or hospital. I remember thinking that the carbonero was utterly at the amo's mercy. This may have been a story from the North, but it's been many years, so I'm no longer sure about any of these details!
Amu o amo
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 6:58 am
by Bob
I had the impression that my family used "amo" or "amu" in the sense of an economic head of household or breadwinner. Still, I did not remember the saying until my father reminded me. I would be curious to learn whether or not that meaning exists in Asturias as well, and what the entire semantic range of the word has been and currently is.
As far as the "Bienveníu" goes, I am delighted by the additional information and suggestions provided by our Asturian friends. Both castellano and asturianu are learned languages for me, and I am constantly working at improving my skills and knowledge. I became interested in asturianu about six months before my 1999 visit to Asturias with my father and brother to see the places where our ancestors lived and to experience some of the culture.
Bob Martinez
more about 'amu'
Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 3:01 pm
by Llueis
I don't dare to establish the real meaning of 'amu' in that folk song. I didn't really notice the possible sinonimy with father proposed by Xiblaniella, which is undoubtedly true in current Asturian speech. Nevertheless, I don't think it's reasonable to assume such a rude treatment to the parents in the times when your ancestors leaved Asturias carrying with them these traditional treasures. I could be wrong, but in my experience I've never heard 'amu' as a polite way to refer to the father, and I doubt of the traditional use of this word in that sense. But maybe my exerience is not wide enough...
Greetings from an unusually hot Asturias.
Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2003 12:15 am
by Art
It sounds as though everyone agrees that for many people in Asturias today, the word "amu" has negative connotations. Please correct me if I've misunderstood this.