Asturian-American Migration Forum

Lately, I have invested some time in establishing the rudiments of an ambitious project. It's partially genealogical; partially genetic and partially historical. All of this is going to fall within the general rubric of DNA, as I intend on utilizing it as a means of solidifying its genealogical merits.

Thanks to its genetic foundation, we need not limit our scope to any specific geographic location or scant records -though both factors would play a tremendous role in helping to form hypotheses and solidify familial bonds.

The use of DNA research has revolutionized genealogy. Now we can concretely identify the relatedness of individuals who could potentially be divided by centuries worth of isolation from one another, as well as those families separated by just a couple of generations.

I was wondering if anyone here has utilized DNA in your respective genealogical investigations and if so, what you have learned.

From what I understand, the Acuña surname is one of the lesser common surnames of Spain. (Incidentally, I was wondering if anyone here could tell me how common this name is in Asturias -where my family comes from). Consequently, it has been relatively difficult tracking down many Acuñas (or even our Portuguese counterparts, the da Cunhas) around the world who are able or willing to participate in the project. I would imagine that this task would be much more fruitful for those who bear more typical surnames.

If anyone wants me to track down some genealogical DNA projects that may concern their surnames -and or the results of such projects (the uncovered ethnic/geographic ancestry of some of the participants, etc.)- please let me know. Already, I know of many such projects pertaining to Iberian surnames.

Celtica, it would be very interesting for many of us to see a listing here of the different Iberian surname projects.

You might wantt o try the last name frequency tool explained here:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtop ... 7250#17250

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Celtica, sería muy interesante para muchos para ver aquí una lista de los proyectos de apellidos ibéricos.

Tal vez te ayudaría la herramienta de frecuencia de apellidos explicado aquí:
http://www.asturianus.org/forum/viewtop ... 7250#17250

Thanks for the reply, Art. I appreciate the info on the surname frequency figures. I've come across a website that purports to function similarly (obviously, on a broader scale). I was wondering how accurate you find it: http://www.publicprofiler.org/worldnames/Main.aspx

As per the surname projects, there are currently over 5,500 surname projects of which I am presently aware of -not all of which are Iberian. It would take quite sometime to extract all of the relevant names, in order to compile such a list.

What I can do is perhaps list some of the common surnames and their projects, or I can take specific requests. I'll see if I can find the direct links to these projects as well.

To give you a brief example of what these sorts of tests can offer, I'll give you the example of a Garcia surname project.

Their project has 71 members, of which

*1 belongs to haplogroup G -a Near Eastern haplogroup, which is particularly common in the Caucasus region of Central Asia.

*3 belong to haplogroup Q -the most common Amerindian marker -which is also observed in various frequencies amongst Asians, suggesting that these particular Garcia's are likely Latin Americans.

*5 belong to haplogroup E3b -a North African/Middle Eastern marker that has existed within Europe since the Neolithic period. (Many assert that heavy portions of the gene were introduced to the Iberian peninsula during the period of Moorish occupation.)

*8 belong to haplogroup J -Semitic marker that initially entered into Europe during the Neolithic. Carriers of this marker in Iberia include: the ancient Phoenicians, Romans, Greeks, Arabs and Jews. Of the 8 Garcias, 3 belong to haplogroup J1, which is strongly associated with Jews and thus further isolates the possibility to lineage for those individuals.

*10 belong to haplogroup I -one of the principle European markers that originated in one of the southern European (possibly in the Balkans) refuges sometime during the last Ice Age. Its highest frequencies are observed in northwestern Europe. And

*44 belong to haplgroup R1b -the most common Y-haplogroup observed in Western Europe. Its highest frequencies in Europe are found in the Basque Country, Wales and Ireland.

That name frequency tool you listed is very interesting. The maps are very helpful. I didn't realize that Menendez was so strongly Asturian (although, yes, I knew about Pedro). If you click on Spain on the world map, then on Asturias on the Spain map, you'll get even more detail.

The FAQ page says they get most of their data from the phone directories, so it's a sampling with some limitations, but strikes me as likely being sufficiently accurate. http://www.publicprofiler.org/worldnames/FAQ.aspx

There are different ways to search. "Ethnicity" as a category is pretty flimsy, and Asturian doesn't appear, although Galician does. The area search will show the top first names and last names for a city or area name.

For Avilés:
Top Forenames
MANUEL
JOSE
JOSE MANUEL
JOSE LUIS
ANTONIO
JOSE ANTONIO
FRANCISCO
ANGEL
JESUS
LUIS

Top Surnames
FERNANDEZ
GARCIA
GONZALEZ
ALVAREZ
RODRIGUEZ
LOPEZ
PEREZ
SUAREZ
MENENDEZ
MARTINEZ

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Ese instrumento de la frecuencia de nombres que notas es muy interesante. Los mapas son muy útiles. No me di cuenta de que Menéndez está tan fuertemente asturiano (aunque, sí, sabía de Pedro). Si haces clic en España en el mapa mundial, a continuación, en Asturias en el mapa de España, obtendrá aún más detalle.

La página de preguntas frecuentes dice que obtienen la mayor parte de los datos de los directorios de teléfono, así que es una muestra con algunas limitaciones, pero me parece probable que sea suficientemente precisa. http://www.publicprofiler.org/worldnames/FAQ.aspx

Hay diferentes maneras de buscar. "Etnicidad" como una categoría es muy endeble, y asturiano no aparece, aunque gallego aparece. Con la búsqueda por área se muestran los principales nombres y apellidos de una ciudad o de una zona.

Para Avilés:
Nombres de pila más frecuentes
MANUEL
JOSE
JOSE MANUEL
JOSE LUIS
ANTONIO
JOSE ANTONIO
FRANCISCO
ANGEL
JESUS
LUIS

Apellidos más frecuentes
FERNANDEZ
GARCIA
GONZALEZ
ALVAREZ
RODRIGUEZ
LOPEZ
PEREZ
SUAREZ
MENENDEZ
MARTINEZ

Hi Celtica,

It appears to me that you intend to use “geneatology” (as one writer liked to refer to this) as the basis or main focus of your genealogy investigations. If that is the case let me save you a lot of time by telling you now you can't do that. You can use the markers in YDNA to aid in your conventional genealogy but you can't use YDNA research to conduct a genealogy project. The reasons are too numerous to list them all, I'll just refer to the most basic reason for that. Within the same haplogroup two people that are completely unrelated can have genetic drift that will give them a similar haplotype, if these two people happen to share the surname it would appear as if they were relatives, when indeed they are not.

I was wondering if anyone here has utilized DNA in your respective genealogical investigations and if so, what you have learned.

What you should do is conduct normal genealogy research, inevitably at some point you will run into a brick wall with some branch within a family or lineage within a surname, when that happens you can use YDNA to aid in determining if this family is indeed related to yours or eliminate them as relatives. For instance, I am an R1b1c* if I'm researching a family with whom I share the surname but have not proven a relationship and run into a brick wall with their ancestry I should conduct a YDNA test to find out if we may be related. If they happen to be J2, then there is absolutely no way we are related, we may share the same surname but there is no way we descend from the same family. If on the other hand we don't only share the same surname but they are also R1b1c* and share the same haplotype with maybe two or three mutations then it is an almost certainty that we in fact descend from the same family although we may not yet be able to prove it with conventional genealogical research and documentation.

On your second post you mention the Garcia surname project, according to you they have people from six different haplogroups, in their case what YDNA has done for them is prove that among the people that share the Garcia surname and have been tested there are at least six very distinct families with very different origins and that there is absolutely no way they (the people from different haplogroups) are related.

I know almost nothing about genetics, haplotypes, etc., so this may be a stupid question.

In a genetic test of the paternal (yDNA) and maternal lines (mtDNA), we're just testing these two lines, aren't we?

me
my father
my father's father
my father's father's father,
my father's father's father's father,
etc.

and

me
my mother,
my mother's mother,
my mother's mother's mother,
my mother's mother's mother's mother,
etc.

In other words, can the tests show any relationship with any of my other ancestors? I'm assuming not, which would be a huge limitation. In the four generations I've listed above (not including me), I'd have a total of 32 ancestors, but the genetics would only trace ten. In ten generations, I'd have 1024 ancestors, and only 20 would be traced.

I'm interested in all of my ancestors, not just my father's patriarchal lineage (the Wagners) or my mother's matriarchal lineage (there is no name attached to that lineage).

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Sé casi nada sobre la genética, haplotipos, etc, así que esto puede ser una pregunta tonta.

En una prueba genética de la línea paterna (yDNA) o materna (mtDNA), se prueba estas dos líneas, ¿no?

me
mi padre
el padre de mi padre
padre de mi padre, padre,
padre de mi padre, padre del padre,
etc

y

me
mi madre,
la madre de mi madre,
la madre de la madre de mi madre,
la madre de la madre de la madre de mi madre,
etc

En otras palabras, las pruebas pueden mostrar ninguna relación con ninguno de mis otros antepasados, ¿verdad? Si es así como estoy suponiendo, sería una limitación enorme. En las cuatro generaciones que he enumerado más arriba (no me incluyo), tendría un total de 32 antepasados, pero la genética sólo se traza diez. En diez generaciones, tendría 1024 antepasados, y sólo 20 se trazó.

Estoy interesado en todos mis antepasados, no sólo en los de la linaje patriarcal de mi padre (los Wagners) o la linaje matriarcal de mi madre (no hay ningún nombre asignado a ese linaje).

Yup you would be testing only those two lines, father to son and mother to daughter. The tests are not designed to show a relationship of any kind with anybody, they don't even show a relationship between a father and a son, they do not provide the genealogical equivalent of a paternity test. All they do is aid in your normal research, you must use them as just another tool. In genealogy often times we use ship manifest to aid us in the genealogical research, knowing were they arrived were they stayed and what was their intended destination helps in telling us were to look next. YDNA tests are a tool, but just that much in the same way that a ship's manifest is a tool to aid in our genealogical research.

The only reason it is good for genealogical research is because the Y chromosome gets passed from father to son, and by chance that is just the same method we use to pass our last name to the next generation.

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Si, las limitaciones del sistema solo te permiten eliminar y/o acceptar como possible una relacion en las lineas materna y paterna. Los examenes no fueron diseñados para demostrar una relacion de ningun tipo, ni siquiera una relacion entre padre e hijo, no es el equivalente genelogico de un examen paternal. Por ejemplo en genealogia muchas veces usamos los manifiestos maritimos como una herramienta mas en las busquedas genealogicas, nos dejan saber a que puerto llegaron, en que lugar tuvieron estadia y hacia donde se dirijian, esa informacion nos indica como proseguir con nuestras pesquizas. De la misma manera los examenes de YDNA son tambien una herramienta, pero solo eso, algo que podemos usar como ayude en nuestras pesquizas genealogicas.

La unica razon por la que este tipo de examenes del cromosoma Y nos sirven en las investigaciones genealogicas es porque ese cromosoma se pasa de padre a hijo y por casualidad nuestra cultura pasa el apellido de una generacion a la siguiente de la misma manera.

Eli wrote:The tests are not designed to show a relationship of any kind with anybody, they don't even show a relationship between a father and a son, they do not provide the genealogical equivalent of a paternity test.

This is untrue. To begin with, if you are indeed related to your father, you would both obviously share the same haplogroup -along with an identical subclade and SNPs, both of which are more valuable for this research than haplogroups alone. Not only is the information far from being broad and ambiguous it can provide a solid foundation for genealogical research.

Of course, the system is not infallible. There are problems inherent to overall system, but none profound enough to marginalize its value.

I'll pose a simple scenario for you. You have two individuals who posses the same surname and both hail from the same region of a specific country. They have both dug deep into their respective family trees, but have yet to find any definitive link between them. With a simple genetic test they can establish the following:

1.) If they share Y-haplogroups. (This is the basic requisite for any sort of genetic link between two individuals and one to build off of if shared.)

2.) If so, how many SNPs they share in common. (This can be just as valuable as a haplogroup/subclade in attempting to establish a familial connection. The more shared SNPs, the closer in history these two individuals are related. Most mutations past the 37 marker point would be a solid proof of familial connections.)

The only reason it is good for genealogical research is because the Y chromosome gets passed from father to son, and by chance that is just the same method we use to pass our last name to the next generation.

That is precisely the reason why it is valuable. Of course, DNA is not the only tool being utilized in my project and I don't believe that I gave any indication that such would be the only factor in my investigations. It is, however, the foundational tool utilized, for it possess the capacity to either substantiate or rule out any possible connections.

Eli wrote: On your second post you mention the Garcia surname project, according to you they have people from six different haplogroups, in their case what YDNA has done for them is prove that among the people that share the Garcia surname and have been tested there are at least six very distinct families with very different origins and that there is absolutely no way they (the people from different haplogroups) are related.

That's exactly what it did; hence why DNA research is such an important element in any serious genealogical project. Names and paper trails can only get you so far. What DNA does is it provides substance to both -at least within the confines of male-to-male descent.

Celtica wrote:

Eli wrote:The tests are not designed to show a relationship of any kind with anybody, they don't even show a relationship between a father and a son, they do not provide the genealogical equivalent of a paternity test.

To begin with, if you are indeed related to your father, you would both obviously share the same haplogroup -along with an identical subclade and SNPs, both of which are more valuable for this research than haplogroups alone. Not only is the information far from being broad and ambiguous it can provide a solid foundation for genealogical research.

You are correct, however, that is because you are comparing two people you know are related. You could very well run into people that share all of that, haplogroup, subclades and even have identical SNPs but unless you have a reason to believe these people are related the tests by themselves don't prove a relationship. These people likely have all these coincidences due to genetic drift, there are so many of us and so few markers that completely unrelated people end up having the same haplotype, haplogroup etc. For instance, (I'll post my own for comparison purposes but you can do this for yourself) if you go to http://www.ybase.org/full.asp?RecordID=RDGY4 you'll see my haplotype, if you run a search for coincidences with that haplotype (you can use any database) you'd run into results of people with whom I would appear to have a genetic distance of two like for instance this guy http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp? ... =tx6dv&p=1 With a genetic distance of two we should be no more than two maybe three generations apart if we were members of the same family, however, because we are not what would appear to be a very close genetic proximity is simply the product of genetic drift. So again, this type of tool will aid you in your genealogical search but be aware that it in and off themselves these tests are not the genealogical equivalent of a paternity test. They do not prove anything, all they can do is disprove a connection, and by elimination they aid you in your research when attempting to put together a tree for a surname with several unknown families.

Celtica wrote: That's exactly what it did; hence why DNA research is such an important element in any serious genealogical project. Names and paper trails can only get you so far. What DNA does is it provides substance to both -at least within the confines of male-to-male descent.

Again, if you happen to know that you are related then it can be used as a proximity aid, but you see, it is just a tool, and for it to work you must use it as intended, otherwise it will fool you. The Steven Tounsand above whose family begun in England and I have absolutely nothing in common, my ancestry has been well documented, it begun in Asturias but with the passage of time as the centuries turned to millenia they moved to greener pastures and ended thousands of miles away from Asturias and England.

Eli wrote:You are correct, however, that is because you are comparing two people you know are related. You could very well run into people that share all of that, haplogroup, subclades and even have identical SNPs but unless you have a reason to believe these people are related the tests by themselves don't prove a relationship.

Hi again Eli.

To begin with, you are indeed correct to a certain extent. However, the more the DNA analysis itself is refined, the less your argument holds weight. For example, it is true that an identical match of haplogroup, subclade and, say, 12-25 DYS values is not in and of itself enough to definitively show a direct familial relationship (depending on how one chooses to define such a thing). If both individuals share a surname, it surely is a good indicator at that point, but still far from certain.

However, if one does match at those levels, he can then test up to 42-55 more DYS values and if they share a significant majority of those -with the possible exception of a handful of fast mutating markers- it's more than safe to assume not only a relatedness, but also one that's time period can be estimated by the overall amount of shared values.

These people likely have all these coincidences due to genetic drift, there are so many of us and so few markers that completely unrelated people end up having the same haplotype, haplogroup etc. For instance, (I'll post my own for comparison purposes but you can do this for yourself) if you go to http://www.ybase.org/full.asp?RecordID=RDGY4 you'll see my haplotype, if you run a search for coincidences with that haplotype (you can use any database) you'd run into results of people with whom I would appear to have a genetic distance of two like for instance this guy http://www.ysearch.org/search_view.asp? ... =tx6dv&p=1 With a genetic distance of two we should be no more than two maybe three generations apart if we were members of the same family, however, because we are not what would appear to be a very close genetic proximity is simply the product of genetic drift.

This was a match at 25 markers -which itself is a very broad number considering that they can currently measure up to 67. I too posses matches at both the 12 marker level and the 25 level (however, with a genetic distance of 3). In addition to not sharing any familial ties, these men also come from different parts of Europe and (at the 12 marker level at least) even posses different subclades.

In your case, I would recommend note looking into which values you both share and differ at and what their overall distribution is within your haplotype. For example, within my own genetic composition, I posses several DYS values with very low distribution frequencies (some as low as a distribution of 2-3% overall). I would imagine that many of the values you share with the English individual have a relatively broad distribution. You can check out that information here:

http://www.ybase.org/statistics.asp#top

So again, this type of tool will aid you in your genealogical search but be aware that it in and off themselves these tests are not the genealogical equivalent of a paternity test.

No, certainly not and I would caution everyone not to assume that sex chromosome haplogroup analysis can even reveal any profound insights into one's overall ancestry -as a majority of one's ancestry goes unaccounted for through such a limited analysis. And on that point I would not even recommend to those interested in determining a larger portion of their ancestry, taking an autosomal test. Their margin of error can be as high as 15% and I have come across far too many instances of dubious analysis with them.

Nevertheless, with the issue at hand, the value Y-DNA posses for genealogical research is extremely valuable; perhaps more importantly in terms of ruling out possible matches than for determining them.

They do not prove anything, all they can do is disprove a connection, and by elimination they aid you in your research when attempting to put together a tree for a surname with several unknown families.

The notion that they can't prove anything is not true. Again, given the proper information, they can indeed serve to establish a familial connection. It's not exclusively limited to the realm of reducing possibilities, though it certainly functions the best in that sense.

Again, if you happen to know that you are related then it can be used as a proximity aid, but you see, it is just a tool, and for it to work you must use it as intended, otherwise it will fool you.

I don't know what gave you the impression that I was utilizing this method in an irresponsible fashion, to warrant this cautionary point. But I obviously agree that the overall service can be used improperly and can thus lead to a great deal of waste and confusion -which is particularly problematic for individuals who posses common surnames, ancestry, haplogroups and DYS values.

The Steven Tounsand above whose family begun in England and I have absolutely nothing in common, my ancestry has been well documented, it begun in Asturias but with the passage of time as the centuries turned to millenia they moved to greener pastures and ended thousands of miles away from Asturias and England.

Speaking in abstract terms, you and Steven are indeed related and through that Y-DNA line (though not your overall ancestry) you are more related to him than you are to another Asturian who may posses a different haplogroup or subclade from you.

But yes, I do understand your point and have encountered the same phenomena with respect to my own DNA matches.

Celtica wrote:Speaking in abstract terms, you and Steven are indeed related and through that Y-DNA line (though not your overall ancestry) you are more related to him than you are to another Asturian who may posses a different haplogroup or subclade from you.

But yes, I do understand your point and have encountered the same phenomena with respect to my own DNA matches.

Hi There!

I am the Steven Tounsand mentioned in this thread. I stumbled across this discussion on a random Google search!

Am I Asturian? I've always felt a pull toward the Spanish culture. I took a whole six month course at UC Santa Cruz devoted soley to Don Quixote...

I've got the Celtic thing down pretty well already!

Hi Steven,

Welcome to the forum!

"Am I Asturian?" Not entirely in jest, Spaniards (and Asturians with them) moved far and wide, so it is quite conceivable that you and folks all over Europe do indeed have Asturian ancestry. Take a look at the territory the House of Habsburg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Habsburg_Map_1547.jpg occupied in Europe, control of all that territory required Spaniard soldiers in them.