Asturian-American Migration Forum

Asturianu - Language or Dialect?

In some ways, asking whether a particular manner of speaking and writing is a language in and of itself, or merely a dialect or a variant of some other language is akin is asking whether two populations of living organisms are one species or two separate species. Some have suggested, perhaps in jest, that a language is merely a dialect with its own army and navy. I'm a geneticist and evolutionary biologist with no formal training in linguistics. My first language is English, followed by French and Spanish and a few others, all learned later in life. I am still learning asturianu and other languages spoken within Spain. Still, despite my lack of expertise and formal training, I think that common sense can shed light on a variety of disciplines, including linguistics.

In the final analysis, I think the distinction between a language and a dialect often amounts to a judgment call.

I would argue, however, that asturianu is best thought of as a language separate from but closely related to castellano for the following reasons:

1) Asturianu originated in situ from vulgar Latin separately from, but in parallel with, castellano, catalan, provençal and other romance languages. Both asturianu and castellano share features with a variety of other languages that arose from Latin on the Italian peninsula and in other regions within Europe. It is entirely reasonable to assume that spoken Latin, as opposed to classic Latin or the Latin adopted by the Roman Catholic Church, had considerable local variation, and that the Latin that was transplanted to various locations within Europe was derived from the local speech of the Latin speakers who invaded, and ultimately settled in, the different regions. The remnants of this variation can be seen in the diverse local speech that exists even today in different regions of Italy.

2) Asturianu is associated with a political history that is quite different from that of castellano. I will post more on this subject in the future.

3) Asturianu has long had its own literature, separate from that of castellano. The first known text in asturianu, the "Fueru d'Aviles", dates from 1155. Antón de Marireguera(1605-1666?) wrote Pleitu ente Uviéu y Mérida pola posesión les cenices de Santolalla, the first known literary work in asturianu. The complete text of the poem, with a translation into castellano by Susana Sela, can be found at http://www.orbilat.com/Modern_Romance/I ... guera.html.

If you would like a translation into English, send me a private message with your e-mail address. What some think is the best poem in Asturian literature is El Caballu by Francisco Bernardo de Quirós, who died at the Battle of Zaragoza in 1710. For a complete text of the poem, in asturianu, click on http://www.asturies.com/asturianu/esbilla/caballu.htm. I will post more concerning 19th century and 20th century works in asturianu at a later time.

4) Asturianu has grammatical features that are distinct from those of castellano. Examples include the existence of a neuter gender as well as a masculine and a feminine, and the form of the possessive. For example, one can speak of mio tía (my aunt), but one has to use the article in speaking of "les mios tíes" (my aunts).

5) Asturianu and castellano have lexicons or vocabularies that are sometimes very different.

bilordiu - defamación, calumnia, mentira, chisme

empachar = llenar, hartar

montaña = picu

gochu = cerdo

pitu = gallo

payares = noviembre

often related but still quite distinct

morrer = morir

regación = irrigación

fartu = harto

selmanal = semanal

falar = hablar

and sometimes identical.


6) The degree of mutual comprehensibility between asturianu and castellano, often estimated at about 80%, is still small enough to interfere with understanding and ability to communicate. I have shown asturianu texts, both old and modern, to four or five faculty members who teach Spanish (castellano) or whose native language is Spanish, and to numerous other naive speakers of castellano, and none of them have been able to read the asturianu texts with ease and confidence.

Thinking of asturianu as a language rather than as a mere dialect creates a parallel between linguistic categories and biological categories. If an endangered species is worth saving (and I certainly think it is), is not an endangered language also worth preserving? Again, I think it is.

The ability to read and write asturianu with native fluency has, over time, has shifted more and more toward the older age cohorts in the population. As a result, it seems doomed to ultimate extinction, with the resultant loss of its unique contributions to our understanding of the human condition, unless we actively make an effort to learn and preserve it, encourage others to do the same, and unless we work toward political cultural ends that favor language preservation and language dissemination. For those interested in the evolution of human groups and the evolution of languages, I recommend Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza's writings.

In 1982, the Academia de la Llingua Asturiana created a standard for asturianu, based largely on the asturianu spoken in the central part of the province, but with elements from other regional variations as well. In general, the eastern dialects of asturianu are more castellano-like, and the western dialects more gallego-like. The vaqueiro dialect, found in western Asturias and the southern regions of central Asturias often uses the "che vaqueiro" in place of "ll". There are other local variants as well.

Enough for now. More to follow.

Excellent Argument, Bob. Another point you can use is that during the Franco regime, the fascist government actively supressed the local languages and imposed Castellano in the comunidades. Historically Spain has been more of a confederation than a unified government. This allowed for separate but parallel culture development. When I was in Spain, the Spanish students at the university encouraged me to speak of myself as Asturian more than Spanish.

It is sad indeed that Franco tried to suppress asturianu and other non-castellano languages in Spain, especially given that he was gallego married to an asturiana (if my memory is correct). Without Franco in power, Asturian may well have enjoyed a richer literature in the middle half of the 20th century. A terrible tragedy, in my view, both for the language and for the people.

One of my strongest memories of my visit to Spain, with my father and my brother, is a series of conversations with my dad's cousin, whom we were able to track down thanks to a very helpful police officer in Piedras Blancas. She related stories about the civil war (among others, that well over two dozen people had been taken to the top of the cliffs overlooking Salinas and summarily shot). She stressed that we were all Asturian, even if we had been born in other countries. We were, in her words, "siempre asturiano."

Even after the civil war was more than 60 years in the past, one of the older people we encountered in San Martin de Laspra was very reticent about talking with us, even after she learned who we were, and warned us not to speak too freely about the war because people had long memories and we could not know who we were talking with. She most emphatically did not want to be photographed, for much the same reason.

Bob, I am very sorry that you felt a certain level of lingering oppression
in the woman from San Martin de Laspra. I think it is rather atypical.
There are a lot of horrible stories from the civil war, but they are told
openly. I wouldn't have believed, until you said otherwise, that anyone
would be distrustful or suspicious explicitly because of fears of political
repression. I mean, the PCE (Partido Comunista de España) has been
in government in almost all the municipalities around Avilés, including
Avilés and Castrillón. We have gone way past the civil war, finally,
thank god.

I am curiuous about the policeman who helped you find your father´s cousin (your "tía segunda"). I know people who work at the town hall and I am sure he´d appreciate your appreciation. Do you remember his name?

An aside; it is very believable that some shootings took place on
the cliff over Salinas ("Pinos Altos"). First, because people were being
shot frequently, by both sides. Second, because there was a substantial
Francoist presence on the cliff; there was artillery up there, and the
trenches dug then still exist. There is a new walking path that goes from
Salinas to Arnao, over the cliff. In March, the contractor was trying to install a cannon in the picnic area up there, to connect the present with the
past a little. I don't know whether he succeeded.

I am sorry that I digressed from the topic of this forum.
What I had meant to post, before I was touched by Bob's recounting of
his trip, was that there is a body of evidence that suggests, strongly,
that "Castilian", as it appeared in or around Sto Domingo de Silos
in the 12th century, was a local dialect of perhaps Aragonés, perhaps
Asturian, whichever it was with strong influence from euskera (basque).
This is reasonable when you remember that the north rim of the penninsula was the place that benefitted least from the cultural pressure of Islam, and was more likely to have kept Roman and visigoth habits, including Latin. I think there is little doubt that, if history defines anguage,
Asturian is one.

Your other arguments are very interesting.

I can´t believe anyone who has read Asturian and Portuguese texts can decide that one is a dialect and the other a language distinct from Castilian. Of course, as you imply, a rose by any name is a rose.

Thanks for your encyclopedic knowledge and also for your enthusiasm.

Thanks for your kind comments. I do not recall the policeman's name. He was about 60 to 65, I would guess, with salt and pepper hair, and of medium build and medium height.

Fortunately, as we were on our way to El Congreso to have dinner, we ran into him (in civilian clothes) entering what I assume was his home, and told him what his efforts had accomplished. He was genuinely pleased to have been of help--a very nice person. We introduced my brother and my dad's first cousin to him, talked with him for a few minutes, and continued on to what by Spanish standards was a very early dinner.

He spoke to us only in castellano, and I think he told us that he was not originally from Piedras Blancas. In contrast, the local police I had asked for directions (in castellano) in Xixon (Gijon), one male and one female, would reply to me only in asturianu even though it was fairly obvious that I was an American. Fortunately, I understood enough even then to find what we were looking for. Everyone else I spoke to in Xixon replied in castellano. I noted, however, that the "calle" on many street signs had been spray painted out and replaced with the asturianu "cai", and that some advertising posters had been similarly converted into asturianu. I didn't see any evidence of this in Aviles.

I don't think that your reply was a digression from the topic at all. Language, in my opinion, cannot be divorced from culture, from history, or from the memories of living people. I have always assumed that the old woman we spoke to was related to some of those who had been summarily executed, and still carried a strong suspicion of any national authority many years after there was any need to do so. Since we were strangers who were asking questions (with my father speaking like a local, but who was born in West Virginia), she was either suspicious of us or worried that we might ask questions that would draw the attention of some old Franco supporters, or perhaps both. After all, the three of us were a man in his 80's who could have been native born, accompanied by two rather large bearded men in their 50's, obviously his sons, who were interesting in taking photographs. The traumas of our youth can be hard to erase from memory.

Hello. It`s my first time in this forum. It`s very interesting and sorry for my bit english. One question about "payares" month.
Noviembre and payares is ok the two.
the most usual always is noviembre but in other years people of the center valleys (cuenca minera y valles centrales -mieres a pola l.lena- said "mes del payares" becaouse in this month arrive the first snows, then was tipycall, but only in the center of Asturias, but no in the other places of Asturias, who did not know this word "word like month", only like "payares de hierba para el ganado"

[quote="martin"]Hello. It's my first time in this forum. It`s very interesting and sorry for my bit english. One question about "payares" month.
Noviembre and payares is ok the two.
the most usual always is noviembre but in other years people of the center valleys (cuenca minera y valles centrales--mieres a pola l.lena) said "mes del payares" because in this month arrive the first snows, then was typical, but only in the center of Asturias, but no in the other places of Asturias, who did not know this word "word like month", only like "payares de hierba para el ganado"[/quote]

Escribo de nuevo para aclarar tras un e-mail recibido el tema del mes de Payares. A traves de la historia solamente entre las zonas de Mieres a Lena y debido a la importancia de paso tanto de personas como de mercancias para la comarca la llegada de las primeras nieves alla por el mes de noviembre, era cuando el Puertu Payares quedaba generalmente con mala comunicacion o incluso con ninguna por lo que mas que el mes se decia la "epoca del Payares" que con el tiempo fue dando lugar al propio mes de Noviembre o Payares, igual que la epoca del "Avientu" en asturiano o "Adviento" en castellano cogia parte del mes de diciembre pero que con el uso incluso cogio rango extraoficial de mes.
Realmente si escribimos en la variante de asturiano oriental "ej. Llanes" u occidental "ej. Tineo" hablaremos siempre de noviembre, exceptuando si hablamos en la variante central "que va desde mieres a Lena" ya que en el resto del centro de asturias "Ej: Gijon a Ribadesella" no tiene ningun sentido ya que no era zona comun de transito la del Puertu Payares en las epocas de principios del XX hacia atras, igual que no lo era en Cangas de Narcea que tenian sus propios puertos de paso o en Amieva para pasar a la zona de Leon. Hoy en dia se emplea si es verdad en el normativo asturiano (el standar) pero realmente es una palabra que cuando comenzo el tema de la recuperacion linguistica se trataba de buscar palabras asturianas que siendo asturianas fueran los mas diferente posible del castellano, para que pareciera "mas Lengua" y nadie dijera que nuestra forma de hablar era un dialecto del castellano. Era un complejo de inferioridad que realmente hoy en dia esta superado. Pero yendo al grano. Para el paisano de toda la vida de Cangas de Narcea, Tineo, Ibias... (occidente) o Llanes, Ribadedeva, Amieva.... (oriente) cuando hablamos de Payares, lo reconocen por el puerto de montaña que separa Asturias de Leon, o bien por Payares (de payar) lo que en castellano son pajares de pajar, refiriendonos al heno, para dar de comer al ganado cuando llega la epoca del invierno y tener para comer el ganado al tener que bajar del monte, pero nunca como el propio mes de Noviembre, que si es verdad que hoy en dia está estendido como noviembre a la hora de escribir en asturiano normativo "y que guapo ye".
Ensin mas, munches gracies y naguando qu'estes pallabres esclariatories en castellanu sirvan pa afondar un poquiñin mas sobre la procedencia de pallabres na nuesa llingua.

Juan León: I'm sure that the Asturian Language DON'T HAVE ANY INFLUENCE BASQUE, tanks God!!

JoseM, how can we be sure of this?

I don't know much about either Basque or Asturian, but it struck me when I first saw Asturianu that the use of letters like "X" were much closer to Basque than Castilian. If the connections are very distant and faint, it would be very hard to prove them, but it seems even harder to disprove them.

That's small point, but I don't like to discount ideas for emotional reasons. (Yes, that's hard!) I'm proud to be Asturian, but I'd be just as proud to be Basque! For me, ethnic pride is only valid if we are willing to enjoy and encourage the pride of other ethnicities, too. Unfortunately, ethnic pride too easily becomes the evil of nationalism.

I hope this makes sense. Perhaps I misunderstood your post?

---------

Reverso translation (tweaked by Art)

¿JoseM, cómo podemos estar seguros de esto?

No sé mucho sobre el vasco o sobre el asturianu, pero me ocurrió cuando yo primero vi Asturianu que el empleo de lettras como "X" es mucho más como al vasco que castellano. Si las conexiones son muy distantes y débiles, sería muy difícil de demostrarlos, pero parece aún más difícil para refutarlos.

Esto es un pequeño punto, pero no me gusta descontar ideas para motivos emocionales. (¡Sí, es díficil!) ¡Estoy orgulloso ser asturiano, pero yo sería tan orgulloso de ser vasco! Para mí, el orgullo étnico es sólo válido si estamos dispuestos a disfrutar y animar el orgullo de otras identidades étnicas, también. Lamentablemente, el orgullo étnico demasiado fácilmente se hace el mal de nacionalismo.

Espero que esto tiene sentido. ¿Quizás no entendiera tu poste?

Me has entendido perfectamente. Ese ultranacionalismo de una parte de los vascos es lo que hace que el resto de los españoles (yo me considero asturiano y español, por ese orden) no estemos de acuerdo con ellos y que muchos los consideren como una lacra para la democracia de esta nación.
¡No se puede matar por orgullo étnico!

Por otra parte, la posibilidad de alguna conexión entre ambas lenguas -el "asturianu" y el euskera- es bastante remota. Parece que esta última lengua no proviene del latín, sino que tiene raíces indoeuropeas. Las "X" se usan también en "galego" y también se usaban en el castellano antiguo, lo mismo que en el latín, la lengua "madre" de esas tres lenguas.

Yo también me siento orgulloso de ser asturiano, pero sobre todo, de ser "ciudadano del mundo".

Saludos

-----------

Reverso translation (tweaked by Art)

You have understood me perfectly. This ultranationalism on the part of the Basques is what makees the rest of the Spanish (I consider myself to be Asturian and Spanish, in this order) not agree with them and that many consider them to be a blight on the democracy of this nation.
It is not possible to kill for ethnic pride!

On the other hand, the possibility of some connection between both languages - the "asturianu" and the Basque - is remote enough. It seems that the latter language does not come from the Latin, but has Indo-European roots. Them "X" they are used also in "galego" and also they were used in the ancient Castilian(Spanish) the same as in the Latin, the language "mother" of these three languages.

I also feel proud to be an Asturian, but especially, to be a "citizen of the world".

Regards

Hi, Jose,

Thanks for your response. It appears that we agree firmly on the basics: pride that kills is a blight on civilization.

That's interesting that the X appeared in old Castilian and Latin. Do you know if the X appears in the Celtic languages, too?

----------

Reverso translation (tweaked by Art)

Hola, Jose,

Gracias por tu respuesta. Aparece que estamos de acuerdo firmemente sobre el básico: un orgullo que mata es una plaga sobre la civilización.

Es interesante que el X apareciera en castellano viejo y latino. ¿Sabes si el X aparece en las lenguas celtas, también?

Como bien dijo el compañero anterior. Es muy importante no perder nuestras raices, sentirnos orgullosos de lo que somos, pero siempre y por encima de todo, las defensa de unas señas o nuestra propia lengua jamas debe ser defendida de manera belica y en la que por desgracia haya gente inocente que pierda la vida.

En cuanto al tema de la x en asturiano, como bien se comento anteriormente no debemos fijarnos nunca en la grafia X como letra a la hora de escribir sino en la forma de pronunciacion que es igual que la "sh" en ingles, la "x" gallega o la "ch" la francesa por poner un ejemplo. Este sonido proviene del antiguo latin en la que en todas las lenguas peninsulares se pronunciaba como una "fricativa sonora" al igual que hoy en dia se conserva tanto en portugues como en catalan como "j". (Podriamos decir que es una letra a medio camio entre la "x" asturiana y la "y"), que posteriormente con el paso de los siglos en el castellano derivo en "j". (No queda muy claro si debido a la proximidad del nacimiento de la lengua castelllana con la vasca, al ser la j un sonido antiguo y caracteristico del vasco influyera en el nacimiento del sonido "j" por proximidad de las dos en la actual j castellana). Con el tiempo solo se conservó este sonido latino en portugues, catalan y frances, pero derivo de fricativa sonora -estas tres ultimas- a fricativa sorda "x" actual nuestra, tanto en gallego como en asturiano. Decir que la x castellana, actualmente se pronuncia como "ks" aunque nosotros la escribamos igual que ellos por motivos de comodidad pero que antiguamente se escribia en asturiano tambien como con X con dos puntos encima "¨" para diferenciar el sonido y existe hasta el ejemplos mas puntuales como "xh".

En cuanto a la posibilidad de que exista algun tipo de parentesco linguistico entre el asturiano y el vasco es totalmente nula. Está totalmente probado filologicamente y ademas no existen palabras comunes ni en la actualidad ni en la historia de la literatura asturiana que asi lo indiquen, exceptuando palabras de tipo prerromanico, celtico o peninsular que son comunes debido a lenguas anteriores habladas en la peninsula iberica o celtiberica.


----------

Reverso translation (tweaked by Art)

As the previous companion said so well, it is very important not to lose our roots, to feel proud of who we are, but always and above all, we must never defend our symbols [?] or our language in a warlike way or in a shameful way that causes innocent people to lose their lives.

As for the topic of the "x" in Asturian, as I commented previously, we must never focus on the graphic representation of "x" as a letter, which is the current way of writing this sound. Instead, we should take note of the form of pronunciation that it has, which is like the "sh" in English, the "x" in Galician or the "ch" in French, to give several examples.

This sound comes from the old Latin, a sound that in all the peninsular languages was pronounced as a "voiced fricative", as it still is today in both in Portuguese and in Catalan as "j". (We could say that this sound [?] is a letter halfway between the Asturian "x" and "y".) With the passage of centuries, in the Castilian this sound became "j". (It isn't very clear if this is due to the proximity of the birth of the Castilian language with the Basque one; the "j" sound being ancient and typical of the Basque, may have influenced the birth of the sound "j"--by the proximity of the two--in the current "j" in Castilian). Over time, this Latin sound now only remains in Portuguese, Catalan and French, but derived from the voiced fricative-- as found in those three languages--is [?] the unvoiced fricative "x" which is now found in both in Galician and Asturian.

To say that "x" in Castilian, nowadays one pronounces it like "ks", though we write it like they do for motives of convenience but it was formerly was written in Asturian as an X with two dots above it "¨" to differentiate the sound. There arel also examples in which it was written more precisely as "xh".

As for the possibility that there is some sort of linguistic kinship between the Asturian and the Basque is totally null and void. It is totally proved philologically. Moreover, common words do not exist, either in the present, or in historical Asturian literature (excepting words from the Preromanesque, Celtic, or peninsular--words that would have been common due to previous languages spoken in the Iberian or Celtiberian peninsula).



Translation by Bob

Martin:

As one of our fellow members said so well previously, it is very important not to lose our roots, to feel proud of what we are, but above all, defending our cultural sumbols or our own language must never be done in a warlike way because innocent people would lose their lives.
---
As for the issue of the letter "x" in Asturian, as I explained earlier we must never focus on the written character "x" at the time of writing, but on the form of pronunciation: For example, it is pronounced [in Asturian] like "sh" in English, "x" in Galician [gallego] or "ch" in French. This sound originated from old Latin as one that all of the peninsular language today pronounce as an voiced fricative, which is preserved as such today in Portuguese and Catalan as "j". We could say that it is a letter about halfway between the Asturian "x" and the "y", which later with the passage of centuries became the "j" of [modern] Castellano. It is still not clear whether this is due to the [physical] proximity of the birth of the Castillian language to Basque, if the "j" represents an old and characteristic Basque sound , which influenced the origin of the sound "j" by the proximity of the two [languages] in the modern "j" of Castellano. Over time, this Latin sound was preserved in Portugues, Catalan and French, but it came from the voiced fricative-–the last three--to our modern-day unvoiced fricative "x", both in Asturian and Gallego [Galician]. This is to say that the Castillian "x", currently pronounced "ks" even though we write it the same [as the "x" in Asturian] for reasons of convenience, was once also written in Asturian as an "x" with two dots over it "¨" to differentiate the sound and there exist even other examples such as "xh".
-------

Concerning the possibility of a linguistic kinship between Asturian and Basque, it is totally nonexistent. This has been completely proven philologically, as well as by a lack of common words both today and historically, and as the [development over time of] Asturian literature also suggests, except for words that are prerromanico, celtic or peninsular that are shared due to the languages spoken earlier on the Iberian or Celtiberian Peninsula.

From what I understand, Basque has had no influence on the structure of either asturianu or castellano, but that there may have been a phonetic influence. Basque lacks labiodentals (f and v), which may be part of the reason that castellano, but not asturianu, has substituted "h" for "f", as in hablar, while asturianu retains the "f", as in falar). Also, Basque has a strongly trilled "rr", as does castellano, while such languages a French and Italian have a weaker sound.

Basque is an isolate that bears little if any relationship to any other known language. Some have even hypothesized that it originated with very early modern humans (Cro-Magnon). Of course, all languages change with time, whether or not they come in contact with other languages, although isolation can slow the change. (Modern citizens of Iceland can still read the old norse sagas in the original because their language has changed only minimally since they were written.)

Old Spanish (castellano) originally had six sibilants, which have been reduced over time. Does anyone know what the situation was in early asturianu?

Bob Martinez

¡¡¡Bones!!!.De xuru que l'asturianu y l'euskera nun tienen res que ver.Eso ta claro. Tampoco ye seguru l'orixe indoeuropeu del euskera,nesti casu,orixe caucásicu,hai delles teories que-y dan un raigañu norteafricanu iberobereber o la más modena d'un posible orixe n'Aquitania(Gascuña costera),u vivíen los aquitanos que teníen una llingua que foi interpretada va poco emplegando l'euskera.

Sumiciu



Translation by Bob Martinez (corrections welcome):

Good day! Certainly Asturian and Basque have nothing to do with each other. This is obvious. Neither is it certain at this juncture that there is an Indoeuropean origin for Basque, a Caucasian origin. There are theories which would give it a north African Ibero-Berber root [origin] or more recently a theory concerning a possible Aquitanian origin (coastal Gascony), where lived the Aquitanians who had a language that was recently was interpreted using Basque.

[Notes by Bob Martinez: This is from memory, so it may not be entirely accurate. I would appreciate any corrections or clarifying additions.

In essence, Aquitanian was an older form of Basque, and was one of the very few pre-Indo-European languages remaining in Spain at the time of the Roman invasion. Very little of Aquitanian, other than personal names–which show its relationship with Basque--is known.

A few Basque words, such as izquierdo and its variants, have made it into castellano and asturianu.]