Asturian-American Migration Forum

That doesn't sound positive.

We're talking about human behaviors that appear in every culture. One of these behaviors is suppression of difference (individualism). There's a very strong human force for "togetherness". We really don't like knowing that someone else is different from us. Again, that's found in every culture.

Hmm... well, my statement wasn’t mean as a compliment or an attack on Unitedstatian culture, it was merely a statement of fact. That said, I don’t disagree with your statement. It is true that the ‘suppression of difference’ exists in every culture (that I know off at least), so it would be fair to say that in essence it is a ‘human’ trait as supposed to Unitedstatian. Now, I’ll point out that the manifestation of it though is (as far as I know , it could have roots elsewhere I don’t know either way) uniquely Unitedstatian. If we compare the same ‘human’ trait in it’s manifestation in two cultures I’m familiar with; Peruvian & Unitedstatian. In the US it is a matter of suppression of differences at all costs, usually in a social environment although it finds it’s way into the workplace, the many laws designed to prevent that in the US is a clear acknowledgement of this. In Peru on the other hand the same trait manifests itself in the exact opposite manner. For teenagers a ‘role model’ something that in the US is deemed not only good but necessary is often (among some classes) ridiculed and suppressed. Those that imitate others, their behavior, mannerisms etc. get ridiculed and statements to the tune of ‘be your own man’, ‘copion’, ‘igualito a fulano eh?!’ are common, the same trait ‘the suppression of difference’ is manifested in a manner that exalts individualism and suppresses similarities by those that attempt to take on someone else’s ‘personality’, even their political views. Often when children happen to have the same political view that their parents have they better know what they are talking about because they will have to prove they are not simply a ‘remedon’ of Daddy.

It's likely that someone living in the US but who was from a Latin culture would feel the effects of this "be like us" force more strongly than someone raised here in this culture.

This is very true, specially for somebody like me, who never was like another and never will be. I could fill a book with stories relating to this, however I’ll give you two examples that are probably representative of most. About four years after I arrived in the states I was working for a large retailer that (at the time) had a cookie cutter management team. Back then every time Mark (a coworker) would go by me (at least 7 out of ten times) would sing ‘My Way’, I had an idea of why he did it, but honestly at the time I didn’t fully understand why. Same company a few years later I was now a store manager and Lester the district manager used to complain to Jim (most influential store manager) that I “was his boss”. He would tell Jim that Eli is ‘his boss’ why? I did everything I was ever told, executed every single order ever given to perfection and invariably ahead of schedule, my results as a manager were stellar, so good in fact that my store was mentioned numerous times in company periodicals (it had over 3,500 stores so it was not a matter of lack of choice) the list of good management praises be would too long to list but the district manager could not stomach my attitude. By then I was starting to realize that the issue was not a failure to perform, but that I don’t bend, never have never will. He was used to the fact that everybody that works for him would become subservient to him much in the same way he was/is subservient to those that have a higher position than his. I on the other hand treated him as an equal, that said, when given instructions/orders I would execute them to the best of my abilities. My attitude, posture, general demeanor is not now nor has it ever been that of a subservient man. Often times when I was still an assistant manager people customers/employees would address me as the manager bypassing the manager, not because I would present myself as such, for instance the customer could not have known which position each member of management had, it was simply the way we are the manner is which we portray ourselves.

This ‘general attitude’ towards life of mine has seen many attempts at cracking it by Unitedstatians in many environments ‘you must mold’ I’ve heard several well meaning but terribly ill informed people tell me. I could go on but think the point has been made, clearly few are like me in the US. One thing is for sure though, people talk about me years after I’ve left One last thing on that comment, I don’t think that me being ‘Latin’ had anything to do with it, I am so not typical of what Unitedstatians consider ‘Latin’ that when I tell them I am Hispanic, for the most part they are surprised, since not even my given name is indicative of such heritage (last name on the other hand...).

As for what Hofstede said, that too in my opinion is culturally skewed. He is putting potatoes and french fries together, bad idea. I’m not a sociologist but I would dissect it like this;

A High Individualism ranking indicates that individuality and individual rights are paramount within the society.

As I have attempted to explain with my examples individuality is highly suppressed in Unitedstatian culture, however, as a society individual rights are (from my point of view) in fact paramount within this society. That said, the importance people today place on those rights is diminishing by the day and the rights afforded to Unitedstatians being eroded with every law the Bush administration passes.

A Low Individualism ranking typifies societies of a more collectivist nature with close ties between individuals. These cultures reinforce extended families and collectives where everyone takes responsibility for fellow members of their group.

This is dead wrong, it is in essence saying that if you have close family ties you can’t at the same time value your individuality. I pride myself on being part of a very close knit family, and I can assure you that no two of us are in any way alike, except maybe for the fact that we are all altaneros, soberbios and orgullosos. Probably I should clarify that this is more of a family trait than proper of Peruvians as a whole though.

Pride, independence, and a refusal to submit to the arbitary will of others are, to my way of thinking, positive virtues. That is probably one major reason why I chose an academic career (it's relatively easy to express those values in that environment), and why I helped organize our faculty union and spent over 30 years as its president. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose, but I've never once given in.

I remember having the same attitude even as a kid. In my Catholic high school one of the teachers (a jock of a priest whom I disliked - and he disliked anyone who wasn't interested in athletics) once publicly berated me for having excessive pride. I had merely questioned church doctrine that seemed illogical to me (papal infallibility, as I recall). My attitude was that if God gave me a mind, who can say that I was not intended to use it. Fortunately, there were others who had a more open attitude, and who respected intellectual challenge even from a teen, or I would have become strongly anti-religious (not that I am a particularly religious person). I still correspond with one of them (my old French teacher) from time to time.

Way back in first grade, I often got into trouble for failing to stay on the same page as the rest of the class (quite literally). When we had to take turns reading out loud, I refused to wait for the slower learners, and just read ahead on my own. When I was called on, I had no idea what page the rest of the class was on.

Such has been my life.

I wonder if pride, independence and a refusal to submit to arbitary authority are a set of views that is more common among Asturians and Asturian-Americans than among other groups. My dad, my uncles and my grandparents had the same attitude toward life.

Eli, I think you are making gross generalizations based on a couple of personal observations. (Not to say that I haven't done the same from time to time.... )What's more, do you posit to say that subservience to authority is unique to American business? Clearly this is not the case. Take Japanese businesses, for example. They are an extreme case of the boss is always right - and superior.

As far as the high individuality ranking shown for the USA, I totally agree with the survey. American culture is all about indivuality and individual achievement - just look at all American classics from movies to comics, from John Wayne to Spiderman. Why, even in the music sector it's the individual that's singled out and promoted: I'm thinking of Janis Joplin, Mama Cass, Diana Ross, Jimi Hendrix and so many others.

But here's the flipside. The individual still cannot survive without a family, unless he can pay his way. It is a statistically proven fact that the individual on his own has very low survival rates when faced with disaster or disability. I recently saw a report on how families take care of their own, and some of the examples were staggering. One of the most impressive examples was when a fire broke out in a large hotel on the Isle of Man causing more than 50 deaths. Well, guess what, all those who died were "individuals", some were alone, others with friends. Nobody thought about them. Those who were part of a family were all rescued by their relatives before the fire brigade arrived.

Janis Joplin, Mama Cass, Diana Ross and Jimi Hendrix? You're taking me on a time trip. In fact, I watched TV biographies on Joplin and Hendrix just two nights ago.

I agree about the value of family, however, even if its something we give little thought to on a day to day basis. We take care of Lily and Zoe two or three days a week, and have often disrupted other plans to do so (it's more fun anyway).

About 30 years ago, when my kids were children and my father was already retired and in his 60's, we went to an amusement park. Some of the kids rode go-karts. His youngest granddaughter crashed hers as we watched (she was not injured). My dad jumped over a fence and was running toward her before any of the rest of us could even react.

I don't think that individuality is necessarily incompatible with taking care of family. In fact, they may be values that complement each other.

Hmm, Bob’s comments make me wonder if it is a genetic trait that people with certain ancestry share, unfortunately it would require a personality/genetic test involving hundreds possibly thousands of people to answer. Even then it wouldn’t be conclusive, but it is possible.

Xose, like I said I could fill a book with examples of the sort, however my post was ‘para muestra un boton’ type thing.

do you posit to say that subservience to authority is unique to American business?

A clarification may be in order, there is a tremendous difference between following instructions, being respectful and being subservient. As an employee I’ve always taken pride on my ability to ‘outperform’ giving more than what was expected of me, I have always been respectful of everybody whether they hold a position of authority over my position or not, I treat the CEO and the Janitor with the same respect. That said, I have never been subservient, following instructions is not having a servile attitude, following instructions and bringing a task to completion is simply performing the duties the job requires. Being subservient is placing yourself and your position ‘below’ that of somebody else, with your words and demeanor you are telling the world ‘you are less’, again please don’t confuse subserviency with respect, or obedience (dutifully complying with the commands, orders, or instructions of one in authority) with subserviency, being obsequious or fawning ( To exhibit affection or attempt to please, as a dog does by wagging its tail, whining, or cringing. To seek favor or attention by flattery and obsequious behavior).

Unfortunately I’m not well versed in Japanese culture to comment on your statement. It would appear to me (and I am by no means knowledgeable on the subject) that Japanese people may appear subservient to westerners while in reality they are being respectful. I have read about Japanese customs but mostly in passing, I realize that this is a stretch but I have read about Chinese social customs and I’m convinced that what westerners take for subservience in their society is in reality an exalted honor system. I would suggest that the same scenario of confusion due to western ignorance of eastern behavior is likely. Once again, I am not well versed in the matter and I could be wrong.

I don’t know if a subservient attitude towards authority is unique to Unitedstatian business, I doubt it. I do know that subserviency is prevalent in corporate US.

looks like we all posted at the same time...

As far as the high individuality ranking shown for the USA, I totally agree with the survey. American culture is all about indivuality and individual achievement -

Yes, your perception is exactly what I meant when I said earlier “they (Unitedstatians) like to claim that individuality is of great importance and that they encourage it.” Unitedstatians make many, many claims on a daily basis that have no basis in fact, this is one of them. Exalting a ‘reality’ that only exists in Hollywood and that ‘reality’ is not only sold to the rest of the world as ‘fact’ but (and this is a kicker) to the Unitedstatians themselves. Since the vast majority of people do not examine or take a minute to think what is given to them they accept it and they will fight to the death believing what was given to them, it is called ‘brain washing’. In my view Unitedstatians are (the vast majority) brainwashed, Stalin once said “sure give me Hollywood and I too will conquer the world”.

Terechu, it is all propaganda, if you would only take the time to analyze what you are given you will see right through it. If you do, it may help to look at it from the perspective of an alien from outer space, not from that of somebody living or having lived in this society.

I think you'll find it interesting to look over the "Values Survey Module 1994" questionaire used in this research. Here are two versions:
http://feweb.uvt.nl/center/hofstede/english.html
http://feweb.uvt.nl/center/hofstede/espanol.html
You'll see that they ask questions that approach the final 5 dimensions indirectly. You can't ask directly: "Does your country emphasize individual action or collective action?"

You can even learn how to score this questionnaire here:
http://feweb.uvt.nl/center/hofstede/manual.html

So far, however, we're talking about very different things. Hearing one person's impressions or one person's story are interesting and might even be one step in a research project, but anecdotal evidence doesn't count for much. As Elí says, you have to eliminate the national, regional, familial, and personal "propaganda".

There are several obvious reasons for that. One is that this one person may be an anomaly. You need a lot of people to be sure you're dealing with a trend. Also, we understand our lives by creating a story to explain things. This is our creation and it changes over time. A social scientist needs to get behind the story to measure something more solid. It can be difficult to separate out solid facts and emotionally-influenced information.

A researcher will ask a series of questions. It would usually be impossible to guess what the research is measuring just by reading the questions. So, let's take one question from the questionnaire: "Most people can be trusted." The test asks for a response on a scale of 1 = strongly agree and 5 = strongly disagree. If 40 Peruvians gave an average answer of 4.3 with a standard deviation of 0.8 - then we'd have something. And if we had responses to other questions that relate to that dimension, so much the better. But it still wouldn't be very useful until we had data from other countries to compare with that. How do a group of Peruians compare with a group of Italians, who except for nationality are otherwise very similar demographically?

Hofstede wrote:However, answers to the 20 content questions will also be influenced by other characteristics of the respondents, such as gender, age, level of education, occupation, kind of work, and year that the survey was held. Therefore, comparisons of countries or regions should in as far as possible be based on samples of respondents who are matched on all criteria other than nationality or region. They should be matched on any criterion (other than nationality) that can be expected to affect the answers.

Having said that, it's interesting to note that Hofstede's initial research was done with IBM employees over the world. Since then that data has been compared with and supplemented with other studies. I'm not totally sure but I think the focus of Hofstede's research is corporate business. So it's quite possible that these results tell us more about that slice of national culture as it relates globally, as compared to small business owners or skilled laborers interacting on a local level. And that's fine for his purposes because (I'm pretty sure) that his clients are primarily global corporate businesses.

Maybe we should take the survey to see how forum members score and to see if there are any transatlantic differences.

Bob wrote:Janis Joplin, Mama Cass, Diana Ross and Jimi Hendrix? You're taking me on a time trip. In fact, I watched TV biographies on Joplin and Hendrix just two nights ago.

Hahahaha Am I a living fossil or what? I watched a documentary on Janis last week, too. I just couldn't come up with any more recent cases, the music business builds its "products" up from the start now, and besides: who can compare to them? We'll never have another Grateful Dead. Kelly Clarkson, Alicia Keys, Robbie Williams? The last big star along this line was Prince and since then...the desert!

Elí, you're going to love this. I went back to Hofstede's data and added Peru to the chart I posted originally.

Country/País. PDI IDV MAS UAI LTO
Spain/España . . 57. 51 . 42 . 86 . xx
Peru . . . . . . . . . 64. 16 . 42 . 87 . xx
United States . . 40. 91 . 62 . 46 . 29
United Kingdom. 35. 89 . 66 . 35 . 25
Portugal. . . . . . . 63. 27 . 31 . 104 xx
Italy/Italia . . . . . 50. 76 . 70 . 75 . xx
France/Francia. . 68. 71 . 43 . 86 . xx

Key / Clavé
xx - no data / sin dados
PDI - Power Distance Index / Índice de distancia de poder
IDV - Individualism / El individualismo
MAS - Masculinity / La masculinidad
UAI - Uncertainty Avoidance Index / Índice de anulación de incertidumbre
LTO - Long-Term Orientation / La orientación a largo plazo

Interestingly enough I don’t disagree with the results posted for Peru. In fact, I think they are more inline with reality than the results posted for the US.

Peru is by in large an Indian or ‘native American’ nation. Although it has about 28 million people only 150,000 of them are white, the vast majority are mestizo or native American. That score clearly reflects the reality of native Americans in Peru. Going back to an earlier post I said “Peruvians are five times more diverse than Unitedstatians” although racism is nonexistent (as is known in the US ) the differences between native Americans and those of European descent or any other race are a lot more pronounced among Peruvians than among Unitedstatians. Because of that I can both agree with the results for Peru, and maintain that my assertions are valid.